Vaccine passports to enter the ground?

Pingu the Penguin said:
But this makes no sense. Presumably your stance is to protect others? But vaccinated people still transmit. The benefit of vaccination (unlike masks, social distancing, lock down, etc) is largely personal
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That's incorrect. There is great benefit to society. They run a much smaller risk of developing serious illness during a wave and thereby a much smaller risk of needing treatment when the NHS is under stress.

And they transmit at a much lower rate. It does not prevent transmission. It reduces the rate per person, possibly more than any other single factor - and that person can continue to act economically and as part of the social fabric.

That is why, as right as it is that we have these discussions, I'm convinced society will indeed use many methods that could be termed coercive - because the only options that will ensure we can keep society and the economy open, are shaping up to be:

1. Risks of schools closing.
2. The unpalatable prospect of vaccinating all children.
3. Or ensuring much higher uptake of the vaccine by the over 18s.

Politically, those arguments are as good as decided already.

Adults will be expected to carry the burden.
 
Jesus2020 said:
Do you have any sources for this? (I'm genuinely interested I'm not just being a knob to try and win some pointless points winning exercise with someone I've never met and probably never will)
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No worries.

www.gov.uk

One dose of COVID-19 vaccine can cut household transmission by up to half

A new study by Public Health England (PHE) has shown that one dose of the COVID-19 vaccine reduces household transmission by up to half.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk

“is new research shows that those who do become infected 3 weeks after receiving one dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech or AstraZeneca vaccine were between 38% and 49% less likely to pass the virus on to their household contacts than those who were unvaccinated”

Couple that percentage with your lower chance of getting Covid after the vaccine and you get to the 75% figure regarding getting Covid and passing it on.
 
Summerbuzz said:
That's incorrect. There is great benefit to society. They run a much smaller risk of developing serious illness during a wave and thereby a much smaller risk of needing treatment when the NHS is under stress.

And they transmit at a much lower rate. It does not prevent transmission. It reduces the rate per person, possibly more than any other single factor - and that person can continue to act economically and as part of the social fabric.

That is why, as right as it is that we have these discussions, I'm convinced society will indeed use many methods that could be termed coercive - because the only options that will ensure we can keep society and the economy open, are shaping up to be:

1. Risks of schools closing.
2. The unpalatable prospect of vaccinating all children.
3. Or ensuring much higher uptake of the vaccine by the over 18s.

Politically, those arguments are as good as decided already.

Adults will be expected to carry the burden.
Click to expand...
Fair points well made. Going back to where we started though I think we would be a lot better off if we understood why people haven’t chosen to take a vaccine that is clearly safe and largely effective BEFORE barring them from doing normal routine stuff. Coercing people and taking away choices arguably entrenches views rather than unlocks them?
 
Alan Harper's Tash said:
You don’t call them anything. You don’t judge them. They just can’t go to restaurants etc until they have the vaccine.
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Are they allowed on the bus that would take them to the restaurant they're not allowed in?
And when they're refused entry to the restaurant, are they allowed into the chippy next door?
 
dickie davies said:
Are they allowed on the bus that would take them to the restaurant they're not allowed in?
And when they're refused entry to the restaurant, are they allowed into the chippy next door?
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www.france24.com

French parliament approves law requiring Covid pass for restaurants, travel starting in August

The French parliament approved a bill early Monday that will require a health pass for access to restaurants, bars, trains and planes from the beginning of August. All venues accommodating more than…
www.france24.com www.france24.com
 
Alan Harper's Tash said:
No worries.

www.gov.uk

One dose of COVID-19 vaccine can cut household transmission by up to half

A new study by Public Health England (PHE) has shown that one dose of the COVID-19 vaccine reduces household transmission by up to half.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk

“is new research shows that those who do become infected 3 weeks after receiving one dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech or AstraZeneca vaccine were between 38% and 49% less likely to pass the virus on to their household contacts than those who were unvaccinated”

Couple that percentage with your lower chance of getting Covid after the vaccine and you get to the 75% figure regarding getting Covid and passing it on.
Click to expand...
I suppose the argument for a vaccine passport at the football here then would be; here are the facts, the potential for a spread at this large scale gathering of around 50k obviously needs to be minimised and as vaccination proves the best way to do this (unless you consider mask wearing too) then this is why we need everyone to be vaccinated.

The [different] personal argument to be vaccinated, the one that isn't selfless and for the benefit of society is a different debate. I'm still unconvinced on its safety long term.
 
Pingu the Penguin said:
Fair points well made. Going back to where we started though I think we would be a lot better off if we understood why people haven’t chosen to take a vaccine that is clearly safe and largely effective BEFORE barring them from doing normal routine stuff. Coercing people and taking away choices arguably entrenches views rather than unlocks them?
Click to expand...
Agreed. IMO that's a trademark of this government. They don't know how to do 'positive factual messaging'. Or clear, simple factual messaging.

It's a shame, I've always felt it has cost us, right from the start. After a while, I just adapted and stopped looking for any signs of change.

Boris' style of communication is best termed 'monkey business'. He's courting approval and minimising risk of catching flack in a specific way. Vagueness, double speak and underhanded stuff is where it's at, mixed with a load of very effective, folksy, sentimental appeal. I really don't compare him to Trump. I compare him to W.

At the same time he is a superb judge of what he can get away with in terms of political / administrative manouvering, and seemingly he would rather rely on that every single time. I honestly believe these decisions are all but made. If the young expect clearer, more positive and factual communication, then they should demand it now, remember how they felt, that another approach was obvious to them and very much preferable.

It definitely is par for the course that Boris would leave it to us to argue and reason with each other. He's not that sort of leader to say something tough, unless he knew full well it couldn't come back on him. Never has been, never will.

I'm reminded that people, especially the young, are far more reasonable and fair than the politicians believe. When it all becomes so underhand, it's easy to forget, there are easier ways, and not every issue need take shape as a division between two camps who don't listen. It's so sad to me that I'm now in my mid-40's, and I've never seen so much of it in my life.

Don't forget it. You lot are not unreasonable. But you're not being given clear information.
 
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