Var debate 2019/20

[danielwood5]

honestly I don’t think so. I recall Liverpool scoring offside goals and winning penalty’s by diving far more last season - at the moment a lot is going to VAR with them and it showing majority of time that they are getting it marginally correct, it’s the fact that they seem to be getting these marginal calls in their favour that has caused uproar - yesterday that really wasn’t a handball by VVD, that wasn’t a handball by Lallana and by the law interpretations given it was a offside goal from Wolves. All 3 were the correct decisions but when they are against you it’s hard to swallow and it creates anger.

Then you recall it wrong, the majority of the offside goals Liverpool scored last season (except the one against West Ham which was just a terrible decision due to the linesman's poor positioning) were the correct decision according to the laws of the game last season. If an offside decision is too close to call by the naked eye then the advantage is given to the attacking team.
The reason you remember them having so many offside goals is because nobody else in the league was given the same advantage as often as Liverpool were, which is why people still talk about our offside goal against Swansea; because it's the only one we had last season. You'd think that with the way we play with Sane, Sterling, Jesus, Aguero and Mahrez playing off the shoulder of the last man that we would have as many offside decisions last season as Liverpool but we didn't. Why is that?
Is it possible that whenever Liverpool get an 'offside' goal (correct to the 'advantage' version of the laws of the game) the multitude of ex-Liverpool players and supporters in the press write it off as 'you make your own luck, they even themselves out over a season, all teams get those decisions' but if a goal were to be wrongly disallowed then it would be a national tragedy; 'the people's Champions' have been robbed by a disgrace of a linesman (who's face would then be plastered all over the back pages of the papers.
Whereas every other team (except maybe one or two others who's ex-players and supporters fill the press ranks) score a goal that is actually correct to last seasons laws of the game then it's all over the press for a few days, don't forget we now have 24 hour sports news that needs to be filled. Team scores a goal where the laws of the game is correctly applied isn't as scandal packed as team scores a goal that may have appeared to be marginally offside if we use our cameras and be selective with our frame choice. Scandal sells.
It was easier for a linesman to just flag everything offside if they want a quiet life (Aguero was wrongly flagged offside yesterday and that isn't a talking point after the game for example) unless it's for one of the press appointed 'good guys' where if a linesman wants an easier life; if it's a marginal offside give the benefit to the 'heroes'.
People didn't want the VAR rules for offsides changing to go against the spirit of the laws of the game (gaining an advantage, stopping gosl hanging) by ruling out goals because of armpits and millimetres, what we wanted was the perfectly serviceable laws we've had for decades to be applied to all teams equally and fairly.
You may say that is what's happening now but as has been discussed regarding the limits of the technology do we know that it is? Are the same officials that were too scared to apply the laws fairly last season now brave enough to be impartial this season? Possibly, but if they are then why was Liverpool's second goal at the Etihad the only millimetre's close offside that's been made in under a minute without anyone seeing the official VAR dotted line all season? Why was TAA's hand deemed to be in a natural position when a decision would go against Liverpool but a Leicester players hand is deemed to be in an unnatural position when it goes for Liverpool? Both decisions were assessed by VAR, were they both assessed fairly and equally according to the laws of the game with the correct decision made in both cases?
VAR could be a useful tool but it isn't being applied equally and fairly, it isn't being used to stop cheating and instead rewards players for simulation. If VAR was used equally and fairly then Liverpool's goal would have been ruled out yesterday as the footage showing VVD's handball was as clear and obvious as the handball precedent set down earlier this season (Laporte V Spurs) except the ball may have brushed VVD's hand of his own volition rather than being pushed onto it like Laporte's was.
This isn't a VAR issue though, it's a problem with the officials and it's a problem caused by media doping.

 

[MillisleBlue]

Transparency is the key to everyone buying in to VAR. The perception of certain Clubs benefitting more than others and influential, unaccountable, faceless c*nts sitting in a pre-fab miles away from the game just doesn't inspire any confidence. The red scousers can enjoy their title but for me it will always be tainted. I'll be forever proud of our great Club for winning the last unassisted premier league.

 

[stonerblue]

from the video it really doesn’t look like it touched his arm. Without VAR would a ref blow for handball ?

Ffs...
I watched the game live and it hit his arm after he mis-controlled it. I then watched it again in minute detail, slo-mo over and over. It hits his arm and rolls down it to his hand. He then has control of the ball, passes to Lallana in the box who shoulders it to Mane who puts it in the net.
Six (6) pundits then take a closer look at half time and agree handball. They then look at it again after the game and come to exactly the same conclusion; Handball that leads directly to a goal.
If the on-field officials missed it then surely var has to take a look right? It either didn't, or, more worryingly, it looked and failed to act properly by disallowing the goal and awarding Wolves a free kick (sounds a bit familiar this.?)

I can't believe that you still think var is a good idea, and it seems your main reason for wanting it is to eradicate diving. Well i can tell you now, without having to google it, that there has been far more 'simulation' since this shit came in than there ever was before.

 

[Whymewhynot]

They asked VVD if it touched his arm afterwards. His reply was he’d have to watch it back. I’m not being funny, it’s his fucking arm. He knows if it touched him or not, if it’s not he says it there and then.

 

[caseball]

from the video it really doesn’t look like it touched his arm. Without VAR would a ref blow for handball ?

Do you think they only got it from one angle?

 

[blueinsa]

Cant beloved fans moan about the offsides offsides and goal line goals are facts 1mm ofside will be 1mm offside for every team

Is it though?

When does the frame get took for each team as the ball is played because it isn't done by tech, it's done by a ref sat in SP and it's already been shown that the moment it's kicked several frames can go by in which you can say a player is on or off due to the speed they are going at so it's off of they want it to be and on when it suits.

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

Are the same officials that were too scared to apply the laws fairly last season now brave enough to be impartial this season?

I think there is a simple answer to this, d. It's, er, a big FatPhil NO! Pawson yesterday demonstrated variability with booking identical offences. They are not going to go from intermittent incompetence, institutionalised in-bred cheating to paragons of impartiality. Pawson didn't want the aggro of sending off a player or giving The Arse a pen! How many times, with Fergie patrolling the techy area with a goal needed and Old Mother Riley nursing the whistle, was the Whistling Wanker gonna bite the bullet and walk off with Fergie foaming at the mouth! Remember Andy d'Urso?

 

[Tommy_Catons_Perm]

Slomo & ultra slowmo cameras used by VAR have framerates of 150fps+, the same as Sky/BT/Amazon's slomo cameras. One report I read said they are also using hawkeye cameras (like the goaline ones) which are 340fps!
These sort of framerates easily bring down the margin of error well into single cm digits.

10 metres per second is also Olympic 100m pace!, the fastest footballers are around 35km/h or 9.7 meters/sec, in short sprints & not all the time, so again the margin of error reduces.

Drawing the lines is simple vanishing point geometry, and would be possible whatever the camera position, but having said all that I do think some of the decisions are questionable at best and VAR are not helping themselves by not showing the ball being kicked etc in the images they produce.

I used round numbers in the calculation of margin of error.
I based the calculation on the frame rate of 50 fps published in an article in the daily mail about sterling's goal v west ham. The calculated margin of error then was 13cm so sterling's speed was closer to 6.5 m per second…
The margin of error is variable, dependent on players relative speeds.
The relative velocity of defender and attacker should be used in the calculation. An extreme example with players moving in opposite directions at 10 m per sec gives a margin of error of 40 cm!
You quote two frame rates of 150 and 340 fps. Are different frame rates used at different grounds I wonder?

 

[blueinsa]

Then you recall it wrong, the majority of the offside goals Liverpool scored ladt season (except the one against West Ham which was just a terrible decision due to the linesman's poor positioning) were the correct decision according to the laws of the game last season. If an offside decision is too close to call by the naked eye then the advantage is given to the attacking team.
The reason you remember them having so many offside goals is because nobody else in the league was given the same advantage as often as Liverpool were, which is why people still talk about our offside goal against Swansea because it's the only one we had last season. You'd think that with the way we play with Sane, Sterling, Jesus, Aguero and Mahrez playing off the shoulder of the last man that we would have as many offside decisions last season as Liverpool but we didn't. Why is that?
Is it possible that whenever Liverpool get a (correct to the 'advantage' version of the laws of the game) the multitude of ex-Liverpool players and supporters in the press write it off as 'you make your own luck, they even themselves out over a season, all teams get those decisions' but if a goal were to be wronvly disallowed then it would be a national tragedy 'the people's Champions' have been robbed by a disgrace of a linesman (who's face would then be plastered all over the back pages of the papers.
Whereas every other team (except maybe one or two others who's ex-players and supporters fill the press ranks) score a goal that is actually correct to last seasons laws of the game then it's all over the press for a few days, don't forget we now have 24 hour sports news that needs to be filled. Team scores a goal where the laws of the game is correctly applied isn't as scandal packed as team scores a goal that may have appeared to be marginally offside if we use our cameras and be seletive with our frame choice. Scandal sells.
It was easier for a linesman to just flag everything offside if they want a quiet life (Aguero was wrongly flagged offside yesterday and that isn't a talking point after the game for example) unless it's for one of the press appointed 'good guys' where if a linesman wants an easier life if it's a marginal offside give the benefit to the 'heroes'.
People didn't want the VAR rules for offsides changing to go against the spirit of the laws of the game (gaining an advantage, stopping gosl hanging) by ruling out goals because of armpits and millimetres, what we wanted was the perfectly serviceable ruled we've had for decades to be applied to all teams equally and fairly.
You may say that is what's happening now but as has been discussed regarding the limits of the technology do we know that it is? Are the same officials that were too scared to apply the laws fairly last season now brave enough to be impartial this season? Possibly, but if they are then why was Liverpool's second goal at the Etihad the only millimetre's close offside that's been made in under a minute without anyone seeing the official VAR dotted line all season? Why was TAA's hand deemed to be in a natural position when a decision would go against Liverpool but a Leicester players hand is deemed to be in an unnatural position when it goes for Liverpool? Both decisions were assessed by VAR, were they both assessed fairly and equally according to the laws of the game with the correct decision made in both cases?
VAR could be a useful tool but it isn't being applied equally and fairly, it isn't bring used to stop cheating and instead rewards players for simulation. If VAR was used equally and fairly then Liverpool's goal would have been ruled out yesterday as the footage showing VVD's handball was as clear and obvious as the handball precedent set down earlier this season (Laporte V Spurs) except the ball may have brushed VVD's hand of his own volition rather than being pushed onto it like Laporte's was.
This isn't a VAR issue though, it's a problem with the officials and it's a problem caused by media doping.

Again, a superb post mate.

 

[Pingu the Penguin]

So when a football association misuse tech against the advice of the game’s lawmakers what do we call it? Incompetence or corruption?

either way, why are these people in jobs?

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...fside-review-ifab-goals-replays-a9264306.html