Var debate 2019/20

[Chippy_boy]

He this mythical Salah onside official VAR image appeared yet????

I'm sure he was onside mate. That does not excuse the lack of scrutiny or evidence whatsoever, but nevertheless I don't think he was actually offside. I'll post a few screen grabs later so you can sleep easier ;-)

 

[bluemc1]

I’m clinging to the dream we are neck and neck with them last day of season and our game with Norwich hasn’t got VAR, identical incidents as Sunday happen in our favour, no hand ball given against us and unproven onside goal
Oh please let this happen

 

[alexmcity]

I'm sure he was onside mate. That does not excuse the lack of scrutiny or evidence whatsoever, but nevertheless I don't think he was actually offside. I'll post a few screen grabs later so you can sleep easier ;-)

Isn't the point of VAR that it uses advanced technologies, which as such are unavailable for the average internet user, and not simply screen grabs?

 

[bluemanchester]

Isn't the point of VAR that it uses advance technologies, which as such are unavailable for the average internet user, and not simply screen grabs?

The advanced technology is the new name for pulling the wool over your eyes

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Ive just seen footage of Neil Swarbrick on the news (the VAR Czar) and he looked a nervous wreck. He’s fallen a long way from the very confident chap who claimed Rodri diced against Spurs. He now claims that VAR’s introduction is worth 7 out of 10 but he talked like somebody who was drowning in quicksand!

 

[Rammy Blue]

It does because you’re suggesting there’s a better version of VAR available. There simply isn’t because any version is just a human making a decision once removed but it is still a human. Some on here think VAR can erase human error it can’t because it is still dependent on human decision making not just when they watch a replay but what to watch and from where to watch it. It’s the easiest way to control and manipulate the sport ever. It is a complete farce.

That’s not what I was saying at all, you’re getting lost in your thought processes.

I was purely talking about the Salah offside incident, and saying that I STILL now today want to see an official working off the lines to show whether he was offside or not. I still haven’t seen it and can’t believe it gets lost in all this that it hasn’t been shown to us as yet.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Isn't the point of VAR that it uses advance technologies, which as such are unavailable for the average internet user, and not simply screen grabs?

Yes. I am merely making the point that he was actually on side.

Here's the evidence. Note a few things:

1. The ball is leaving Robertsons foot (you can see the yellow blur). The microsecond before, when Robertson first touches the ball, Salah is further on side.
2. The red and blue lines top and bottom are to show that the white "offside" line is correctly drawn. The ratios of the red line to the blue line are the same, top and bottom.
3. Salah's furthest point forward is his knee and this is clear behind Stones' foot. (Click image for bigger picture)

Again, none of this excuses the lack of VAR scrutiny. They did not scrutinise it, in case it proved to be offside, IMO.

 

[SilverFox2]

What if the player who strikes the ball does so in a plane that is not 9O degrees the to the camera?

That exacerbates the problem about identifying in a 2D frame the moment when the ball is struck, and what is the relevant moment for the offside comparison? When the boot strikes the ball, or when the ball leaves the foot? What is to stop the operator using different criteria in every game?

Then once you have the frame, how do you compare the position of players who are not inline with the camera. Drawing the line across the pitch is straightforward. Anyone can do that in microsoft Paint. I've done it loads of times, but then you have the problem of body parts which are are at different heights and this distorts the view when you are not inline.

To illustrate this effect:

We know that Stones cleared the ball on the goal-line as per inline camera footage, but look how it appears when it is viewed from a different perspective.

As far as I know, VAR are not correcting marginal offsides calls for the viewing angle and relative heights of bodypart and reference line when the ball 'is struck'. It matters not when the camera is inline, but it does matter when it isn't, and frequently it isn't.


There are 2 sources of error with VAR offside calls:

1) Establishing the moment when the ball is played because there is no single moment, and in practise it's not so easy to capture anyway

2) Distortion of the like we see above when player's goal-side body-parts are at different heights, and the view is at an angle

I maybe wrong about the 2nd point, but if this effect exists for goal-line assesments at an angle, then I think it should also be applicable for offside calls. Isn't the goalline clearance we have in the image above directly analagous to a line across a pitch and two player's body parts which are at different heights to that reference line?

The only mitigation is that typically the angle is small. They try and select an image that's relatively inline, but they are never directly inline. Look at the size of the error that this angle introduces.

I think you are mathematically correct in saying height matters.

The problem is of course in that goal line technology measures only where the ball goes whereas offsides attempt to measure not only the ball but also a moving 90 degree line dependant on extreme parts of at least 2 opposing players at a time dependant on deciding when a ball is actually passed, not received.

Too many variables for close decisions may I suggest?

The suspicion will always be that a particular frame was shall we say "selected" for its suitability rather than being proof.

When we want to measure just offside decisions perhaps existing tv cameras are not perfect so perhaps 2 highly mounted overhead static video cameras, similar to goal line ones, per half splitting the field.into exact quarters would be better suited. Could even make them slo mo recording for say 10 mins before recording later action thus increasing the suspect 25fps to slo mo fps.. Synchronise them timewise with existing tv camaras and we have a better video reference for close decisions.

 

[Afterthefact]

Yes. I am merely making the point that he was actually on side.

Here's the evidence. Note a few things:

1. The ball is leaving Robertsons foot (you can see the yellow blur). The microsecond before, when Robertson first touches the ball, Salah is further on side.
2. The red and blue lines top and bottom are to show that the white "offside" line is correctly drawn. The ratios of the red line to the blue line are the same, top and bottom.
3. Salah's furthest point forward is his knee and this is clear behind Stones' foot. (Click image for bigger picture)

Again, none of this excuses the lack of VAR scrutiny. They did not scrutinise it, in case it proved to be offside, IMO.

I may be mistaken, but why are you measuring the length of that grass panel? Doesn’t your offside line need to be parallel with the line at the top of the 18yd box? That’s a true perpendicular to direction of play. The grass panels are clearly crooked and warped (look at the one inside the 18). Appears to me if your line were parallel with the top of the 18, then stones is behind it as salah breaks it.

 

[Tommy_Catons_Perm]

Yes. I am merely making the point that he was actually on side.

Here's the evidence. Note a few things:

1. The ball is leaving Robertsons foot (you can see the yellow blur). The microsecond before, when Robertson first touches the ball, Salah is further on side.
2. The red and blue lines top and bottom are to show that the white "offside" line is correctly drawn. The ratios of the red line to the blue line are the same, top and bottom.
3. Salah's furthest point forward is his knee and this is clear behind Stones' foot. (Click image for bigger picture)

Again, none of this excuses the lack of VAR scrutiny. They did not scrutinise it, in case it proved to be offside, IMO.

I printed a simailar photograph which was posted on Sunday and used a ruler to measure the width of the dark grass at salah's position and at stone's position. I then measured
the distance from the the "off-side" line to the front of the dark patch of grass, at salah's and stone's position and calcuated it as a percentage of the width of the dark grrass.
I got 29% at both salah's position and at stone's position. Effectively this is the same proof as using the blue and red bars at the top and bottom of the picture
It implies that the off-side line is drawn at the correct angle. Therefore it is probably not off-side unfortunately.