VAR Thread - 2021/22

[bluetonium]

I'm not sure what to make of last night's game in regards to var. I called both goals wrong, even foden didn't celebrate and was mouthing 'i think I was off', and the second I was surprised they used laporte's arm to make the call as he couldn't legally score or gain an advantage with that particular limb. I'd say they should be using the furthest forward part of your body that you can legitimately score with, although lord nose Rashford wouldn't be happy then.

On the Toney & Fernandinho incidents, part of me thinks the ref got it right to allow the game to continue with eleven apiece, as I think also Fernandinho made the most of it when he was on the recieving end, but at the same time it was a completely needless act that started a period of poor discipline from both sides, and as a challenge should probably have been pulled up as much to show that none of that nonsense is acceptable.

Rather we won without a red each though, especially as we have no other defensive midfielders in the first team currently, but Toney has probably forgotten the fact that he still has to turn up at our place for a game in 5 weeks time. Swift kick to the gonads in the first five minutes is on the cards, before we pass the ball around him for 90 mins and make him look like a championship player well out of his depth. He's shown he can be got at and will react.

 

[Cassandra]

The point at which offside is judged is when the foot, head or ither body part FIRST TOUCHES the ball not when it LEAVES the foot, head or body part. PGMOL and pundits get this wrong all the time but AI is close to working this out for FIFA - you can calculate the point at which contact occurs 99% of the time as ball accelerarion/deceleration is imparted by contact.
Offside for arms doesn't count and is measure at the bottom of the armpit (which is now much better).
VAR was spot on for both our goal decisions last night.

I think IFAB got it wrong when they decided that it was the initial contact - what is to stop a player balancing the ball on his / her foot whilst a team-mate runs from an onside position to an offside position before flicking the ball forward? An extreme example I know but possible. Better would have been to take two positions - the last frame where the body is in contact with the ball and the next frame where the ball has left and take those to give the thickness of the lines. If the lines of the attacker and defender overlap then the attacker gets the benefit. Even then measuring offside to such fine margins sort of defeats the objective of the offside law which is to stop players gaining an advantage by being in an offside position - a few mm is hardly an advantage. In measurement terms there is also a problem lining up heads and shoulders with feet unless the camera is directly in line with the last defender and allowing a bigger margin for error would help avoid some onsides being called as offsides because of errors in measurement.

Determining the end of the arm for handball and offside has improved but I note that most short sleeved shirts extend rather further down the arm than the armpit.

 

[Gray]

Determining the end of the arm for handball and offside has improved but I note that most short sleeved shirts extend rather further down the arm than the armpit.

Go back to daylight between the defender and attacker, that gives the attacker an advantage and is easier to spot.

Any overlap of defender and attacker is not offside.

 

[dennishasdoneit]

I think IFAB got it wrong when they decided that it was the initial contact - what is to stop a player balancing the ball on his / her foot whilst a team-mate runs from an onside position to an offside position before flicking the ball forward? An extreme example I know but possible. Better would have been to take two positions - the last frame where the body is in contact with the ball and the next frame where the ball has left and take those to give the thickness of the lines. If the lines of the attacker and defender overlap then the attacker gets the benefit. Even then measuring offside to such fine margins sort of defeats the objective of the offside law which is to stop players gaining an advantage by being in an offside position - a few mm is hardly an advantage. In measurement terms there is also a problem lining up heads and shoulders with feet unless the camera is directly in line with the last defender and allowing a bigger margin for error would help avoid some onsides being called as offsides because of errors in measurement.

Determining the end of the arm for handball and offside has improved but I note that most short sleeved shirts extend rather further down the arm than the armpit.

You have gone into admirable detail to explain your points.very well....but I can't help thinking it's more of a maths discussion than football these days.

 

[Cassandra]

You have gone into admirable detail to explain your points.very well....but I can't help thinking it's more of a maths discussion than football these days.

Yes, that's true but it seems to me that in the application of VAR, to some extent generally but specifically relating to offside, that both the footballing aspect and the maths (or, if you'll excuse my pedantry "metrology") is not well thought out. In terms of the footballing aspect they need to define what constitutes an "advantage" by being in an offside position - I don't think that it is a few mm.

Once they have it clear as to what represents an advantage then they have to define how to measure it and identify what errors there are in the measuring system and perhaps change the definition of offside to minimise the measurement errors. For example suppose that they decided that there was an advantage if either foot of the attacker was completely ahead of the closest foot of the defender to the goal - ie. there was space between foot of the attacker closest to the goal and the foot of the defender closest to the goal then they would be able to reduce some of the measurement errors.

Hawk-eye in cricket clearly have a much better concept of error than they do in football with the "umpire's call" and it is surprising that this hasn't carried over into offside decisions in football.

 

[Hart of the Matter]

The point at which offside is judged is when the foot, head or ither body part FIRST TOUCHES the ball not when it LEAVES the foot, head or body part. PGMOL and pundits get this wrong all the time but AI is close to working this out for FIFA - you can calculate the point at which contact occurs 99% of the time as ball accelerarion/deceleration is imparted by contact.
Offside for arms doesn't count and is measure at the bottom of the armpit (which is now much better).
VAR was spot on for both our goal decisions last night.

Not sure that 99% is right.
At 50 frames a second they cannot capture the exact moment of contact which allows up to 2 frames variance = 40cm potential movement of feet. That is 1ft 4inches in old money.
That is a conservative estimate and upward leg movements and arm, head movements could be even more. That's before we get into defender movements. So a player moving in opposite directions multiplies those parameters by 2 ( 2ft 8 inches between frames). Therefore saying someone is a yard offside is still within margin of error. If they draw the true margin of error lines on people would be pissed off....

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

Not sure that 99% is right.
At 50 frames a second they cannot capture the exact moment of contact which allows up to 2 frames variance = 40cm potential movement of feet. That is 1ft 4inches in old money.
That is a conservative estimate and upward leg movements and arm, head movements could be even more. That's before we get into defender movements. So a player moving in opposite directions multiplies those parameters by 2 ( 2ft 8 inches between frames). Therefore saying someone is a yard offside is still within margin of error. If they draw the true margin of error lines on people would be pissed off....

Ergo VAR is flawed and not fit for purpose.

 

[Hart of the Matter]

Ergo VAR is flawed and not fit for purpose.

And it sucks the life out of football.
People who claim it is accurate are talking shite...
For accuracy that is liveable with we need

150 frames a second (reducing margin of error to 1ft (30 cm).

Draw a line from feet only - ruling out variables such as arm pits, head movements etc.

Draw a true margin of error line 15cm in front of striker with additional 15cm in front of defender.

Always give any aspect of doubt to striker

Make it instantaneous

All that before we even get into penalties, Red Card shite and the impact is having on the decision making ability on referees.

It was, is, and always will be a complete shit show.

I use to celebrate each and every goal wildly. Done that maybe 3 times this season... Now I mainly sit on my hands.

 

[dennishasdoneit]

Yes, that's true but it seems to me that in the application of VAR, to some extent generally but specifically relating to offside, that both the footballing aspect and the maths (or, if you'll excuse my pedantry "metrology") is not well thought out. In terms of the footballing aspect they need to define what constitutes an "advantage" by being in an offside position - I don't think that it is a few mm.

Once they have it clear as to what represents an advantage then they have to define how to measure it and identify what errors there are in the measuring system and perhaps change the definition of offside to minimise the measurement errors. For example suppose that they decided that there was an advantage if either foot of the attacker was completely ahead of the closest foot of the defender to the goal - ie. there was space between foot of the attacker closest to the goal and the foot of the defender closest to the goal then they would be able to reduce some of the measurement errors.

Hawk-eye in cricket clearly have a much better concept of error than they do in football with the "umpire's call" and it is surprising that this hasn't carried over into offside decisions in football.

Football is corrupt mate.
They make it up as they go along to fit in with betting patterns,hiding away in their little videobroom,decision making logic shrouded in secrecy.
There will never be transparency.
Basically.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Bump