VAR thread 2022/23

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What struck me last night was the smirk on the referees face as he was 'explaining' the decision to the Spuds players. He was having a whale of a time. I have to say it smelt bad.

I thought the same but then remembered something I read about 'fear reactions' many years ago. A person under significant pressure may well smile 'automatically' to try to show that they're on everybody's side.
Basically, the final decision wasn't his but he had to take the flak. He was simply following orders and wasn't in a position to take sides in the argument.
VAR destroys whatever authority the referee has on the pitch. It's an absolute shambles. The referee should have the final decision. If his decisions are going to be overruled, the ref may as well not be there.
I honestly felt sorry for the bloke last night.
 
It feels like the sport has been hijacked. What we're seeing in football with VAR is a bad attempt to reinvent the wheel. They've sent football down an unsustainable path. Football was a very simple sport at its core, but very sophisticated in the way it was played, managed and covered by the press. The complex strategies involved, the uninhibited ability to play with any formation, the clash of styles, and the way it all worked and came together was that it was officiated in real-time through a tried and true method. Everything about it, how linesman flag offsides, only works in real-time with instinctive decisions. The willingness to accept VAR on any level shows a complete lack of understanding of how football works and it's insulting to anyone associated with the sport.

What this has done is dumbed down the entire sport. The knowledgable fan knows this whole ordeal is wrong. The experts on the tele or the match commentators used to call a match were able to engage in the flow of the match and not be taken out of that dream-like state that used to be watching a match. It's like listening to music, to your favorite song, and right in the middle of your favorite song, the record scratches, the music stops, and you have to wait 3 minutes for the music to re-start. And by then you've been taken out of the song. It's not the same experience listening to the last minute of a song if you aren't able to listen to it start to finish without any interruptions.

Imagine not only having your song re-started after a long wait but the song is picked up at a different time in the song. Or lets say you're listening to an album. In the middle of a song, the record skips and when it starts playing again it's in the middle of another song on the album. That's what VAR is like. It's like your whole sense of time and space is hijacked. There's no continuous start to finish any more. At any time the match can be turned on its head and stopped from the direction it was going in only to be redirected into new and random directions based on some bloke in an ivory tower having a direct line to the referee. Football is so fundamentally broken with VAR it's not even funny. The sport needs to made whole again. Otherwise it's going to continue to drive us completely mad and that's not OK.

And we can't compare football to others sports. Football is unique in many ways and that's why we love it. I'm OK with TMO in Rugby because Rugby is a far more complicated sport with natural stoppages. And systemically TMO seems to work relatively well given the constraints, given how it was designed. Not that TMO is perfect, but it is far less disruptive to watching a Rugby match. Not only is VAR an unwelcome addition to football, but it's designed so poorly. I mean just think about how it takes the opportunity to focus on some of the most subjective parts of the game, while ignoring others. Like VAR for example has no ability to even look at whether a corner kick should have been awarded instead of a goal kick. Which is what often leads to goals, that are then reviewed. There's situations where a corner kick given incorrectly, then a goal is scored off a corner kick, then the goal is reviewed and goes to VAR, a subjective foul is given, a goal might be taken away, that shouldn't have happened to begin with because a corner kick was given incorrectly, there's no consideration or even any discussion about whether the corner kick was given correctly, and the goal or non-goal should never have even happened because it was put out by the other team.

It's so utterly pointless to look at only select decisions and obsessing over those while ignoring other decisions which in many cases are less subjective and easier to make decisions on via camera angles. What I'm getting at is it's one thing to do some kind of a system of reviewing wrong decisions, but not only is VAR so incredibly disruptive to the flow and enjoyment of the game, but it's also so frustratingly poorly designed in how it is implemented. And the other thing is just how they've seen the bad results of VAR and rather than improving the system itself, they've gone to the laws of the game to start tweaking those as if it's the laws that are the problem. It's completely mental and what I'm trying to point out is that all this has been created and maintained by the FIFA President. He's the one who has created all of this, and everyone has just taken their marching orders from him, and from his right hand man Colina. What gets me about Colina is he spent a long and successful career as a referee, calling matches in real-time, kmowing the art of that. How he can be on board with this travesty is beyond comprehension. He should know about the art of refereeing and what it takes to be that. I'm afraid Mr. Colina has been completely brainwashed by Infantino about this system, the idea that referees need to be helped.

Referees need to be allowed to do their job properly. I'm sorry for going on and on about this, but it is very upsetting to see what has happened to football with this VAR. There must be some way that we can put this system to an end. It's devastating football and until VAR gets the boot, we will continue to be punished with a sub-par version of football that is practically unwatchable. It's insulting what they've done to the sport, before VAR, football had reached a level of sophistication in terms of how knowledgable fans were about it and how the sport was covered. All of that has been completely broken and dumbed down to a point to where it's hardly recognizable. It's a tragedy. Football is meant to be an immersive outlet for us to escape from the rigors of life. They've turned this once glorious sport upside down with this failed experiment known as VAR and I will never stand for it. Fans have the power whether they realize it or not to do something. Maybe we need to start boycotting matches or taking drastic action. But one way or another, VAR must be stopped. It is spreading like the plague, like a wildfire, now it's into Scottish Football. It cannot be allowed to continue.
100% with your analysis and analogy - top post - but fear the emotionless technocrat nerds will win the day.
 
the ref knew it was totally out of his hands and he was the one getting lambasted

Does corruption always have to come into play? why would the 'powers' want to deny Spurs a winner ?
Don’t know mate. Why would they want to deny us numerous times in the CL? In Spuds case, it makes for a far more interesting situation in game 6. Putting your natural prejudices aside we’re you happy with what you saw/heard from a purely process perspective?

1. the amount of time it took to determine goal/no goal
2. the lack of any concrete evidence why Kane was deemed offside.
3. the fact that the technology isn’t fit for purpose to measure tiny margins of offside.
 
Don’t know mate. Why would they want to deny us numerous times in the CL? In Spuds case, it makes for a far more interesting situation in game 6. Putting your natural prejudices aside we’re you happy with what you saw/heard from a purely process perspective?

1. the amount of time it took to determine goal/no goal
2. the lack of any concrete evidence why Kane was deemed offside.
3. the fact that the technology isn’t fit for purpose to measure tiny margins of offside.

sometimes decisions are so tight and tough, and the officials are under mega pressure to get it right, when they get it wrong it's not 'denying' - it's just the outcome of the decision

I'm in agreement that delays like that will result in possible fans boycott/protests
 
sometimes decisions are so tight and tough, and the officials are under mega pressure to get it right, when they get it wrong it's not 'denying' - it's just the outcome of the decision

I'm in agreement that delays like that will result in possible fans boycott/protests
you didn’t really answer my question.
There should be little pressure on referees if the process is open, transparent and fair. Mike them up. Show fans the pictures they are making decisions on, let us hear the discussions and the rationale for a decision. As I have constantly said. Like Rugby Union. It’s the lack of transparency and evidence based decision making that is putting pressure on them.

for example. Phil’s goal against Liverpool. How it should have worked;

Goal Scored
Goal check
referee to VAR; any reason why I can’t give this goal
Var to referee; we are looking at two incidents, potential foul by Haaland on Fabinho, potential foul by Haaland on Alisson
referee to Var; show me both incidents,
first film plays,
Referee; ok, yes there is a slight pull of the shirt but I have been letting similar go all game. No foul.
second clip plays Referee asks for it to be played from three angles
Referee; ok, Alison appears to have control of the ball as both hands are touching the ball which is grounded. By the laws of the game a challenge in those circumstances is deemed foul play. Free kick to Liverpool. Goal disallowed.
Referee; is there any reason why I shouldn’t give that as a revised decision
VAR no.
other than Liverpool are cunts


Disclaimer: this scenario included as an example. In no way should it be read that the goal should have been disallowed :-)

Conversations like that happen all the time in Rugby.
in all seriousness, if that is miked, broadcast in real time, the same clips shown in the ground and on Tv as the referee is seeing, 95% of problems solved. Those disciplines will sure as hell make referee and Var decision making better, tighter and quicker.
 
you didn’t really answer my question.
There should be little pressure on referees if the process is open, transparent and fair. Mike them up. Show fans the pictures they are making decisions on, let us hear the discussions and the rationale for a decision. As I have constantly said. Like Rugby Union. It’s the lack of transparency and evidence based decision making that is putting pressure on them.

for example. Phil’s goal against Liverpool. How it should have worked;

Goal Scored
Goal check
referee to VAR; any reason why I can’t give this goal
Var to referee; we are looking at two incidents, potential foul by Haaland on Fabinho, potential foul by Haaland on Alisson
referee to Var; show me both incidents,
first film plays,
Referee; ok, yes there is a slight pull of the shirt but I have been letting similar go all game. No foul.
second clip plays Referee asks for it to be played from three angles
Referee; ok, Alison appears to have control of the ball as both hands are touching the ball which is grounded. By the laws of the game a challenge in those circumstances is deemed foul play. Free kick to Liverpool. Goal disallowed.
Referee; is there any reason why I shouldn’t give that as a revised decision
VAR no.
other than Liverpool are cunts


Disclaimer: this scenario included as an example. In no way should it be read that the goal should have been disallowed :-)

Conversations like that happen all the time in Rugby.
in all seriousness, if that is miked, broadcast in real time, the same clips shown in the ground and on Tv as the referee is seeing, 95% of problems solved. Those disciplines will sure as hell make referee and Var decision making better, tighter and quicker.

I don't see how a miked-up ref last night would have made much difference

Spurs score
VAR ''Hold up, might be offside''
Ref 'Ok, let me know'
Ref 'hurry up lads, got Dier and Doherty going mad''
VAR (4 Mins later) ''sorry for the hold up, tight one, it was offside''
Ref ''ok cheers''

That honestly would just be the jist of it
 
The Varce Continues in Madrid :

A penalty was awarded after the full time whistle had gone, for a handball in the box off a deflected header from a corner.



Game is gone. Remember how the handball law changed earlier this year to only award penalties for deliberate handballs now. Well then what about this shenanigans? Player who's thumb grazed off the deflected header was in mid-air trying to use his left arm to rebalance himself. There's no way you can conclude that was deliberate, given how fast the ball was coming in and how it had just been deflected off a header. It was a complete coincidence that his thumb managed to nick that deflected header before deflecting off his teammates shoulder.

The fact that a VAR check was ordered and a penalty given after the final whistle floors me. This is a complete mockery of this sport. We hear so much about how VAR is run so much better in other parts of Europe than in the Premier League. I haven't seen anything this horrendous in the Premier League and that's saying a lot.

Ignore var for a moment. The fact that Atletico are out and the circumstances of it happening made me much happier than Spurs getting mugged off.

What I will say is the Spurs decision was correct, it is the 4 minutes that is wrong. I haven't seen the Atletico one so don't know but ha fuckin' ha.
 
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Are you saying that if the VAR spots a clear penalty offence in the game but the referee blows up before he has had time to tell him, then he should just pretend it didn’t happen?
You and me have been on opposite sides re var many times but you are right about this. I never understood fans complaining about the rag one (Brighton ?) either. If handball occurs in the 39th minute I don't expect it to be ignored so why should it in the 93rd ?
 
I don't see how a miked-up ref last night would have made much difference

Spurs score
VAR ''Hold up, might be offside''
Ref 'Ok, let me know'
Ref 'hurry up lads, got Dier and Doherty going mad''
VAR (4 Mins later) ''sorry for the hold up, tight one, it was offside''
Ref ''ok cheers''

That honestly would just be the jist of it
No it wouldn’t.

we need to revert to some bloody football fundamentals.
Offside is not a science. It never was and until we have the technology to track the very instant a ball leaves the foot and at the same time monitor exactly the position of up to 20 other players body parts it never bloody will be.

ok let them draw lines for Var purposes but then simply apply a consistent margin for error. I’m sure I heard that the accuracy of Var is currently 2/3 cm. It’s easy then. Apply a 5cm margin of error across the game. To get back to clear daylight. Then last night is easy. Note also what the supporters will see/hear.

Goal scored
Goal check
referee; ok any reason why I can’t award this goal
Var, it’s tight for offside on no 9.
referee; let me see the pictures (clips shown with lines drawn in Stadium) not a flashing glimpse, the image is kept there during the decision making process.

Referee; ok wind back the picture and let me see it in slow mo.
that happens and is shown on screen.
Referee; stop the image there and reapply the offside lines.
Var does it and that image is shown on screen
Referee; ok, I see no ‘clear daylight’ that would show an offside situation, do you agree? (Lines are touching, a scenario we have seen time again).
Var; yes. We can confirm the lines are less than 5cm apart
Referee; ok. No 9 not offside. Is there anything else that I should look at?
var; No.
Referee; ok. Goal given.

Can you see the difference?
The technology and VAR team are there to help the referee
the referee remains the decision maker even where he overturns an initial decision
The Tv audience and match going crowd remain involved in the process as they can see and hear( if they choose to tune in on headphones mor match going fans).

So So much better. If you don’t think this would work, go watch rugby.
 
No it wouldn’t.

we need to revert to some bloody football fundamentals.
Offside is not a science. It never was and until we have the technology to track the very instant a ball leaves the foot and at the same time monitor exactly the position of up to 20 other players body parts it never bloody will be.

ok let them draw lines for Var purposes but then simply apply a consistent margin for error. I’m sure I heard that the accuracy of Var is currently 2/3 cm. It’s easy then. Apply a 5cm margin of error across the game. To get back to clear daylight. Then last night is easy. Note also what the supporters will see/hear.

Goal scored
Goal check
referee; ok any reason why I can’t award this goal
Var, it’s tight for offside on no 9.
referee; let me see the pictures (clips shown with lines drawn in Stadium) not a flashing glimpse, the image is kept there during the decision making process.

Referee; ok wind back the picture and let me see it in slow mo.
that happens and is shown on screen.
Referee; stop the image there and reapply the offside lines.
Var does it and that image is shown on screen
Referee; ok, I see no ‘clear daylight’ that would show an offside situation, do you agree? (Lines are touching, a scenario we have seen time again).
Var; yes. We can confirm the lines are less than 5cm apart
Referee; ok. No 9 not offside. Is there anything else that I should look at?
var; No.
Referee; ok. Goal given.

Can you see the difference?
The technology and VAR team are there to help the referee
the referee remains the decision maker even where he overturns an initial decision
The Tv audience and match going crowd remain involved in the process as they can see and hear( if they choose to tune in on headphones mor match going fans).

So So much better. If you don’t think this would work, go watch rugby.

But the officials in the VAR room have the laws of the game, they know if it’s offside or not - it’s not the referees judgment call - they are the ones to tell the ref if it is off or not

Having the referee run to the monitor for a look and a chat for a offside is pointless and wastes more time - it’s a simple yes or no decision
 
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