Vinicius Junior

Kippax Street 1880 said:
Really exciting player who would improve any team in the world. Madrid don't lose players like him I'm afraid.
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was news recently hes agreed terms to a new contract and will be announced end of the season but it’s Madrid so who knows
 
burning blue soul said:
1st, don't ever feel sorry for Real. They are as nasty as any extreme fan with the abuse and pressure they inflict on the whole football world.
2nd, although I agree that fans can go overboard (and our league appears to have a decent grip on these minorities), the baiting and banter between fans is what makes going to a football match special. There are some that don't understand where the line is and they cross it, but mostly fans pisstake each other and long may it continue.
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Re. point 2, I agree with you about fans baiting each other being an integral part of the game. However we need to be careful not to conflate that with racist behaviour and hate crime which is what we are talking about here. They are two separate things.

When you call someone a monkey and make monkey noises, it's not going overboard or failing to know where the line is. It's racism and a crime (at least in this country). We should call it out as that and make it clear there is absolutely no place for it in football.

We're not as bad as Spain but we've still got a problem and we shouldn't tolerate it as part of our football culture.
 
threespires said:
Re. point 2, I agree with you about fans baiting each other being an integral part of the game. However we need to be careful not to conflate that with racist behaviour and hate crime which is what we are talking about here. They are two separate things.

When you call someone a monkey and make monkey noises, it's not going overboard or failing to know where the line is. It's racism and a crime (at least in this country). We should call it out as that and make it clear there is absolutely no place for it in football.

We're not as bad as Spain but we've still got a problem and we shouldn't tolerate it as part of our football culture.
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Race is still a huge problem in England. You only have to look at how City’s owner has been treated. Brought in ffp to kick him out.
 
wolviedinho said:
Race is still a huge problem in England. You only have to look at how City’s owner has been treated. Brought in ffp to kick him out.
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There's levels to it.

We still have a lot of insidious, below the surface prejudice and racism, the kind we saw with Sterling in the Sun, but it's absolutely nothing like what we're seeing in Spain.

If a premier league footballer was subjected to extended monkey chanting once, let alone all season, it would be front and back page news for weeks, the government would get involved, it would dominate the entire public discourse. If editors of newspapers came out and said it was the player's fault, they'd be fired. If Richard Masters went on twitter to have a spat with the player, he'd be fired.

In Spain it's been going on for a year, and has only made major headlines now Vinicius has reacted badly to it and the world has reacted, forcing La Liga and Spain into looking like they're doing something.
 
domalino said:
There's levels to it.

We still have a lot of insidious, below the surface prejudice and racism, the kind we saw with Sterling in the Sun, but it's absolutely nothing like what we're seeing in Spain.

If a premier league footballer was subjected to extended monkey chanting once, let alone all season, it would be front and back page news for weeks, the government would get involved, it would dominate the entire public discourse. If editors of newspapers came out and said it was the player's fault, they'd be fired. If Richard Masters went on twitter to have a spat with the player, he'd be fired.

In Spain it's been going on for a year, and has only made major headlines now Vinicius has reacted badly to it.
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I agree with all of that

BUT

Lots of talking.....does anything really ever get done about it though in the UK?

These people may get stadium bans if identified...but should the punishments be more....ie imprisonment? For me it should mean imprisonment and lifetime bans from football stadiums as well.
 
simon23 said:
I agree with all of that

BUT

Lots of talking.....does anything really ever get done about it though in the UK?

These people may get stadium bans if identified...but should the punishments be more....ie imprisonment? For me it should mean imprisonment and lifetime bans from football stadiums as well.
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At a certain point talking is how you fix it, long term. It comes down to education and establishing in public that racism isn't acceptable, creating awareness of the impact of using racism as a weapon against people - whether in sport or politics or day to day life, and creating an environment that raises children who don't accept those views.

In the UK I think we're at a point in football where it's only individuals who do racist stuff, and they usually get found, arrested, publicly shamed to some extent because their name always ends up in the press (and I imagine this has pretty severe consequences in terms of employment, personal life) and banned from football - which is going to be a deterrent to anyone who can be deterred.

In Spain, or Hungary, or Italy where you have entire stands or stadium chanting racist shit? I'd just close the stands. It hits the clubs in the pocket which incentivises them to fix it.
 
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domalino said:
At a certain point talking is how you fix it, long term. It comes down to education and establishing in public that racism isn't acceptable, creating awareness of the impact of using racism as a weapon against people - whether in sport or politics or day to day life, and creating an environment that raises children who don't accept those views.

In the UK I think we're at a point in football where it's only individuals who do racist stuff, and they usually get found, arrested, publicly shamed to some extent because their name always ends up in the press (and I imagine this has pretty severe consequences in terms of employment, personal life) and banned from football - which is going to be a deterrent to anyone who can be deterred.

In Spain, or Hungary, or Italy where you have entire stands or stadium chanting racist shit? I'd just close the stands. It hits the clubs in the pocket which incentivises them to fix it.
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Again I agree with all of that....but at the same time is that football passing the book onto society?

It is about how children are brought up and society as you say but football has to play a huge part in that as the influence of football on societies youngest is huge (especially young boys who become young men). It could be argued that it is football's responsibility to lead the way with this due to its HUGE outreach/influence on young people. Making sure that these people are identified, arrested and charged (I know the football clubs have zero criminal power BUT they do have a lot of POLITICAL sway at least) is the start. Clamping down on it in the ground immediately at the point it happens.

I think some people (maybe me) are just sick and tied of rhetoric with seemingly little action (or maybe the action that is taken isnt made public enough?)
 
threespires said:
Re. point 2, I agree with you about fans baiting each other being an integral part of the game. However we need to be careful not to conflate that with racist behaviour and hate crime which is what we are talking about here. They are two separate things.

When you call someone a monkey and make monkey noises, it's not going overboard or failing to know where the line is. It's racism and a crime (at least in this country). We should call it out as that and make it clear there is absolutely no place for it in football.

We're not as bad as Spain but we've still got a problem and we shouldn't tolerate it as part of our football culture.
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we are agreeing on the same thing. i used to hear some racist stuff many years ago at matches, now it is all but eradicated except for a very few minorities who need chucking in the societal bin.
 
domalino said:
At a certain point talking is how you fix it, long term. It comes down to education and establishing in public that racism isn't acceptable, creating awareness of the impact of using racism as a weapon against people - whether in sport or politics or day to day life, and creating an environment that raises children who don't accept those views.

In the UK I think we're at a point in football where it's only individuals who do racist stuff, and they usually get found, arrested, publicly shamed to some extent because their name always ends up in the press (and I imagine this has pretty severe consequences in terms of employment, personal life) and banned from football - which is going to be a deterrent to anyone who can be deterred.

In Spain, or Hungary, or Italy where you have entire stands or stadium chanting racist shit? I'd just close the stands. It hits the clubs in the pocket which incentivises them to fix it.
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For me the answer is really simple. The perpetrators should be jailed for committing a hate crime & banned from attending football matches globally for life.

In the case of Spain, a clear message would be if Valencia were heavily fined, had points docked, & were made to play every game away for a season, with a complete ban on their fans attending ANY matches for a season.

Now if some racist arsewipe was potentially gonna make me & City suffer this way for a season because of his sick racist behaviour, I bet he'd have half of Manchester looking for him on his prison release for making us pay because of his grotesque racist behaviour! \0/

HOWEVER, for me there's an even bigger issue. People caught racially abusing players are generally arrested, fined and/or jailed & given a lifetime ban from the club they support.

In 2014, UEFA shifted the FFP monitoring period without informing City, which meant from being £3m inside the FFP limit, we ended up being £3m outside, but look how football dealt with us, as opposed to how it deals with clubs who have a serious racist problem! :-/

City received a £50m fine. A squad reduction to 20 players, but 4 had to be club trained & 4 Association trained. We also had a £50m net transfer limit imposed on us for good measure too, which stunted our ability to fully compete for 3-4 seasons.

Look at the difference in response from the football authorities! Which is the worst crime? The vicious & vile abuse Vini has had to endure with an effigy of him left dangling from a bridge in the Spanish capital, or City with a turnover of £300m+ "allegedly" overspending by £3m? Exactly! :-/

It's football as a whole that needs to take a good long hard look at itself. If clubs who cock a snoot to racism were faced with the same punishment City faced from FFP, INCLUDING the quashed 2 season CL ban, we'd soon see racism return to the grotesque political extremes from where it originates. )(
 
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Dave Ewing's Back 'eader said:
Yer can always emulate Gallas. Was he at Arsenal and said he'd score an own goal if he didn't get a transfer to Chelsea, or was he at Chelsea and wanted to go to Arsenal?
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lol! i forgot about that little nugget. who would actually want a player coming to you who says something like that?
 
Dribble said:
For me the answer is really simple. The perpetrators should be jailed for committing a hate crime & banned from attending football matches globally for life.

In the case of Spain, a clear message would be if Valencia were heavily fined, had points docked, & were made to play every game away for a season, with a complete ban on their fans attending ANY matches for a season.

Now if some racist arsewipe was potentially gonna make me & City suffer this way for a season because of his sick racist behaviour, I bet he'd have half if Manchester looking for him on his prison release for making us pay because of his grotesque racist behaviour! \0/

HOWEVER, for me there's an even bigger issue. People caught racially abusing players are generally arrested, fined and/or jailed & given a lifetime ban from the club they support.

In 2014, UEFA shifted the FFP monitoring period without informing City, which meant from being £3m inside the FFP limit, we ended up being £3m outside, but look how football dealt with us, as opposed to how it deals with clubs who have a serious racist problem! :-/

City received a £50m fine. A squad reduction to 20 players, but 4 had to be club trained & 4 Association trained. We also had a £50m net transfer limit imposed on us for good measure too, which stunted our ability to fully compete for 3-4 seasons.

Look at the difference in response from the football authorities! Which is the worst crime? The vicious & vile abuse Vini has had to endure with an effigy of him left dangling from a bridge in the Spanish capital, or City with a turnover of £300m+ "allegedly" overspending by £3m? Exactly! :-/

It's football as a whole that needs to take a good long hard look at itself. If clubs who cock a snoot to racism were faced with the same punishment City faced from FFP, INCLUDING the quashed 2 season CL ban, we'd soon see racism return to the grotesque political extremes from where it originates. )(
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you have just summed up society in a nutshell. the privileged and monied protect themselves, and lay down different laws to the cattle they think we are. and when a minority of the cattle behave disgracefully, we are all tainted. but dont fix it if it harms the money streams.
 
burning blue soul said:
you have just summed up society in a nutshell. the privileged and monied protect themselves, and lay down different laws to the cattle they think we are. and when a minority of the cattle behave disgracefully, we are all tainted. but dont fix it if it harms the money streams.
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What the "cattle" always fail to realise is there's more of us in the herd, than there is herders. If the herd moves against them, they're getting crushed in the stampede, so how do the elite herders protect themselves? Divide & conquer!

Racism was a rich man's construct, to deflect from the issue of rich & poor. If poor whites looked at the rich & opened their eyes & said enough is enough, there's too many of us for them to stop a revolution.

HOWEVER, if you introduce a strawman distraction based on race, colour, ethnicity & sexual orientation, it's proved to be an effective mechanism to achieve the divide & conquer goals which rely on "You're not poor because of rich people hogging all the wealth & resources, you're poor because of that Catholic/Black/Gay/Foreign fella over there! Stop them & suddenly you'll be better off!". It's the basic premise Farage used to take Brexit from the political extremes to the mainstream, & it worked! :-/

I watched a documentary about race a while ago, which involved a KKK Klan Dragon & a Black Civil Rights Activist. To cut a long story short, after being forced together for a college debate on race, they began to talk & the KKK guy realised he had more in common with this working class Black woman, than he did with the rich white folk who were egging him on from the shadows, but who wouldn't reveal themselves publicly.

The KKK dude soon realised he was the merely the rich man's useful idiot, & after a lot of Soul searching, he turned into one of America's greatest civil rights & race activists ever!

Most of us are working/middle-class football lovers who have more in common which unites than divides us. I learned from my early teens that shit is shit regardless of what colour it comes in, so I give respect to everyone I meet, until they give me a reason to withdraw it.

But to do so based on a persons' colour, race, religion, creed or sexual orientation without you even knowing the content of that person's character is the epitome of prejudicial ignorance! All of the above prejudices deflect from the real issues facing most people I happen across, which is equality of opportunity.

It's like Rishi Sunak, Elon Musk & Donald Dunce claiming they're self made Billionaires. Sunak's parents could afford to send him to the £49,000 per year Winchester school, whilst most of us had to make do with the nearest Comp. Also his father in law is reputedly worth £40bn!

Musk's family were so rich his Dad once said: “We were very wealthy. We had so much money at times we couldn’t even close our safe,” adding that one person would have to hold the money in place with another closing the door. “And then there’d still be all these notes sticking out and we’d sort of pull them out and put them in our pockets.”

Donald Dunce inherited the majority of his Dad's fortune, but yet would have you think he started out as a broke shoeshine boy with a stall based on 5th Ave!

These types will do whatever's necessary to maintain their birth advantage over the rest of us. In Sunak's case it's policies favouring the wealthy over the poor, with Musk & Dunce it's engaging with the far right to stop the poor looking at the rich & to instead to focus on minorities & their differences to the majority.

Back to FFP... The European Elite football clubs have demonised City to all & sundry to protect the hegemony of the G/14 & the old Sky Four plus Spuds who seriously believe they're amongst the elite! This ploy is no different to how the far right operate. Blame someone else because life's shit for you at the mo, but DON'T look at us rich folk at the elite red top clubs!

For example, weren't BURNLEY one of the Hateful Eight who operated against City? How the fuck do Burnley compare their situation to those at Old Toilet? But yet they'd do anything to suck up to them in the hope of feeding on the crumbs & scraps from those sat at the top table of football.

If decent football fans moved as a herd, the power structures built to maintain the football status quo would crumble overnight & we'd soon resolve FFP which was created to protect the European elite clubs as Gary Neville admitted on MNF, the grotesque issue of financial inequality, race, sexual orientation & sectarian prejudice in football... )(
 
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