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Missing the point. I posted his win percentage to show that he's not as bad as some are making out. It wasn't an attempt to laud him.

The reason I did this is because I think he deserves more respect than he's being shown.

I've been guilty of slagging him off in the past and I do think that he is a bang average manager who is a hindrance to us. He's very similar to Roberto Martinez IMO.

That said I will still clap him at the end of the season and wish him all the best for the future.

I just think that we have been poor domestically for 2 seasons now. We've regressed since his title win and that's hard to watch when you see the quality in this side.
 
There's no point here mate, I've repeatedly said why I quoted his win percentage, you continually refuse to acknowledge why and suggest I did it for another reason, let's leave it there.

I think we're getting a bit lost here mate.

I'll quote what you said, word for word:

"I quoted the percentage because I feel it deserves to be acknowledged in light of the slagging off he's getting from Blues."

Perhaps his win percentage should be acknowledged in light of him being slagged off. I agree, and I acknowledge his win percentage.

But my point is that his win percentage should be viewed in context. Both by Blues slagging him off, and Blues defending his performance.

I illustrated, with the examples of Brian Clough and Avram Grant, that win percentages viewed in isolation do not give a full picture. They should be viewed in context.
 
He was the only manager I can remember in football history employed with his replacement already in discussion about the job. That is the definition of a caretaker.

He has only ever been a caretaker. He hasn't signed the players he wanted. He's been handed players bought with a future manager in mind.

To me Pellegrini liked two strikers, painfully obvious. Obvious to a fault. Yet, the manager who clearly likes two strikers is left with 1. 2 if you count Bony. An 18 year old is always a gamble. Both he and Mancini, even Ferguson for that matter have insisted you need four in the PL. Which manager is famous for wanting just 1 striker and often plays without a striker? Yup. Guardiola. So, does two senior strikers sound ideal for a manager who likes 4 or a manager that likes 1 or non?

He favours two centre mids. City have left him hamstrung in this department too.
Nothing I have seen from him would indicate Sterling was signed with Pellegrini in mind.

He has been hamstrung by Txiki and the impending Gaurdiola from day one. He was only ever here till Pep was made available.
Year 1, put out Mancini's fires. Done and won the league.
Year 2. Improve on a PL win and build or work in a holistic way. He failed. As did Txiki, Fernando & Mangala...
Year 3. Keep the seat warm for a manager he and all the players knew was impending. Work with players signed for another coach. For me, he should have won the league. I beieve he would of with less injuries. He has overachieved in the CL.

Imagine the havoc Mancini would have caused had he not been able to pick his transfer targets. We don't need to, he called Marwood out in public.

Pellegrini's set up is simple and uncomplicated. Two energetic midfielders. Attacking full backs. Wide men that like to cut in and rightly or wrongly two out and out strikers.
We've signed players for another manager, another system, a system the current manager doesn't use. We have as litterally as possible asked a Leopard to change his spots.

To judge a manager in these circumstances is very difficult as I've never come across this scenario before. I doubt many have.

You're making it sound like Pellegrini has been hard done by.

He signed a 3 year deal and has seen out the 3 years. He should have been binned off last season but his caretaker status has actually kept him in his job.

Not once has he put a doubt in the clubs mind about him being the man to take us forward. He could have been going into the last few weeks with every City fan in the country wanting him to stay, yet I'd wager that most cannot wait to see the back of him.

Onto the transfer argument, he has been handed some of the most sought after players in the world. Otamendi, Mangala, KDB and Sterling could have had their pick of clubs. He's been given players who have proven their class elsewhere and not been able to get the best out of them.
 
I didn't suggest it was you who turned the tone patronising.

I assume your issue was the "lambs" line, well I was actually poking fun at another poster who had used that line, so it wasn't aimed at you.

I'm not really sure what the 'arry Redknapp school of thought is that you're referring to?

You don't know why I'm quoting Avram Grant's Chelsea record? I'm not sure which bit you don't get? You were quoting Pellegrini's win percentage as some kind of evidence that he's a good manager. I'm quoting Avram Grant's win percentage to you, which is better than Pellegrini's, as evidence that a good win percentage is not conclusive evidence that someone is a good manager.

Any statistic should be taken in context.

Avram Grant having a good win percentage at Chelsea is not conclusive evidence that he is a good manager, or one "worthy of respect". He took over a very good team, and he was a pretty limited manager. It's fair to assume his impressive win percentage was more down to the talented squad at his disposal than his managerial acumen.

Similarly, Pellegrini has a good win percentage with City, but does that show conclusive evidence that he is a good manager? I don't think it does. He took over a top team and spend a shit load of money, more than any of his rivals. He should have a good win percentage. It's expected.

Brian Clough took provincial Second Division Nottingham Forest to back to back European Cup wins. His win percentage isn't as good as Avram Grant's. It isn't as good as Pellegrini's. Do you think it is then fair to assume Brian Clough wasn't as good a manager as Avram Grant or Pellegrini? Personally, I do not.

Statistics, win percentages, are fine, but they need context.


You know that season that had Grant been in charge from the start of the season they would have walked the league and they were a John Terry fuck up from winning the CL.
Mourinho lead them to 10 points from the first 21 and a drew with Rosemburg.

Had Grant been in the position all season, he'd have pissed the league.
 
You know that season that had Grant been in charge from the start of the season they would have walked the league and they were a John Terry fuck up from winning the CL.
Mourinho lead them to 10 points from the first 21 and a drew with Rosemburg.

Had Grant been in the position all season, he'd have pissed the league.
Yet according to a few, Mourinho is a genius, Pellegrini a clown, it's that blindness to the facts that I don't get
 
've been guilty of slagging him off in the past and I do think that he is a bang average manager who is a hindrance to us. He's very similar to Roberto Martinez IMO.

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You know that season that had Grant been in charge from the start of the season they would have walked the league and they were a John Terry fuck up from winning the CL.
Mourinho lead them to 10 points from the first 21 and a drew with Rosemburg.

Had Grant been in the position all season, he'd have pissed the league.

Thus proving my point, his impressive win percentage was down to a highly talented group of players, not his managerial acumen. You could have put Ronald McDonald in charge of that group of players and they'd have a good win percentage. John Terry had fallen out with Mourinho and he ran the dressing room. It was a similar situation to this time round with Mourinho, and his last season at Madrid, half the players would literally prefer anyone over him.

I've even seen Frank Lampard in an interview say during that season on route to the Champions League final they didn't need managing, they managed themselves. They were one of the best Premier League teams ever, certainly Chelsea's best team ever in my view. Their high win percentage that season, and run to the CL final had far more to do with the players than the manager.

Look what happened afterwards. Those Chelsea players went on to win multiple league titles and a European Cup under an array of different managers. Avram Grant got West Ham relegated and managed some semi pro teams in Israel.
 
You're making it sound like Pellegrini has been hard done by.

He signed a 3 year deal and has seen out the 3 years. He should have been binned off last season but his caretaker status has actually kept him in his job.

Not once has he put a doubt in the clubs mind about him being the man to take us forward. He could have been going into the last few weeks with every City fan in the country wanting him to stay, yet I'd wager that most cannot wait to see the back of him.

Onto the transfer argument, he has been handed some of the most sought after players in the world. Otamendi, Mangala, KDB and Sterling could have had their pick of clubs. He's been given players who have proven their class elsewhere and not been able to get the best out of them.


You are totally failing to understand my point. No, he hasn't been hard done to. I never said he has. I said he's been in an incredibly unique position.
I've followed football for 30 years, I can honestly say I've never come across a situation like Pellegrini's. If you can feel free to share.

I'm not argueing about the quality of players signed. I'm arguing weather they are the ones Pellegrini wants or wanted. Ibra was the greatest centre forward in the World, Pep didn't want or like him.

No, he's never put doubt in the club's mind, nor the fans. He has been a caretaker, how do we know, how does anyone know what he may have achieved had he had free reign? I don't know weather he's shite or not, I'm not prepared to judge him without all the information in an incredibly unusual situation. I can say that the likes of Ferguson, Mancini, Wenger, Klopp, Mourinho and as he's been mentioned elsewhere Clough would manage in this situation. Do you think Kloop would succed at Liverpool if he knew regardless of his job he would be replaced by Gerrard? If he knew he had three years regardless and players were being signed for Gerrard and Gerrad's system?
If you're honest, you'll know the answer.

I have repeatedly said he has not done the best job. But he is being judged without context. There can be no context because it's a truely unique situation.

As I say, I'd be interested to know of any clubs who've employed a manager whilst already having a deal in place for his successor.
 
Thus proving my point, his impressive win percentage was down to a highly talented group of players, not his managerial acumen. You could have put Ronald McDonald in charge of that group of players and they'd have a good win percentage. John Terry had fallen out with Mourinho and he ran the dressing room. It was a similar situation to this time round with Mourinho, and his last season at Madrid, half the players would literally prefer anyone over him.

I've even seen Frank Lampard in an interview say during that season on route to the Champions League final they didn't need managing, they managed themselves. They were one of the best Premier League teams ever, certainly Chelsea's best team ever in my view. Their high win percentage that season, and run to the CL final had far more to do with the players than the manager.

Look what happened afterwards. Those Chelsea players went on to win multiple league titles and a European Cup under an array of different managers. Avram Grant got West Ham relegated and managed some semi pro teams in Israel.

Grant did very well at Chelsea. He's no where near the ability of Pellegrini as you've said.
A Chelsea side that could manage its self. We've got a side that needs multiple changes depending on who we play.

We haven't built a side, the club is treading water till Pep comes. That is my entire point.

Chelsea built a side that Avram Grant would have won a league and CL double had it not been for Jose and Terry. I agree, Grant is useless.
We've built a team that requires the very best in the game to manage. A team we all achknowledge needs plenty of recruits.

Chelsea built a team that didn't need a manager.
We've built a team that a very good manager is struggling with.

See my point now?
 
He was the only manager I can remember in football history employed with his replacement already in discussion about the job. That is the definition of a caretaker.

He has only ever been a caretaker. He hasn't signed the players he wanted. He's been handed players bought with a future manager in mind.

To me Pellegrini liked two strikers, painfully obvious. Obvious to a fault. Yet, the manager who clearly likes two strikers is left with 1. 2 if you count Bony. An 18 year old is always a gamble. Both he and Mancini, even Ferguson for that matter have insisted you need four in the PL. Which manager is famous for wanting just 1 striker and often plays without a striker? Yup. Guardiola. So, does two senior strikers sound ideal for a manager who likes 4 or a manager that likes 1 or non?

He favours two centre mids. City have left him hamstrung in this department too.
Nothing I have seen from him would indicate Sterling was signed with Pellegrini in mind.

He has been hamstrung by Txiki and the impending Gaurdiola from day one. He was only ever here till Pep was made available.
Year 1, put out Mancini's fires. Done and won the league.
Year 2. Improve on a PL win and build or work in a holistic way. He failed. As did Txiki, Fernando & Mangala...
Year 3. Keep the seat warm for a manager he and all the players knew was impending. Work with players signed for another coach. For me, he should have won the league. I beieve he would of with less injuries. He has overachieved in the CL.

Imagine the havoc Mancini would have caused had he not been able to pick his transfer targets. We don't need to, he called Marwood out in public.

Pellegrini's set up is simple and uncomplicated. Two energetic midfielders. Attacking full backs. Wide men that like to cut in and rightly or wrongly two out and out strikers.
We've signed players for another manager, another system, a system the current manager doesn't use. We have as litterally as possible asked a Leopard to change his spots.

To judge a manager in these circumstances is very difficult as I've never come across this scenario before. I doubt many have.

I disagree. According to the Collins dictionary the definition of caretaker manager is someone who temporarily holds the office of manager at a football club. I don't think you could argue that 3 years is in any way temporary.

He did have some difficulties to overcome, such as the recruitment being done with a long term view. He probably inherited some players he didn't want, but I don't think that makes him a caretaker. I think most managers in Europe have players bought for them who aren't their first choice. I think Goetze was one such player for Pep at Bayern. And even Lewandowski I don't think Guardiola wanted initially, although he's now flourished under him.

Mancini in his final season had the likes of Scott Sinclair and Javi Garcia bought for him, I don't think they were his choices. They were the choices of Brian Marwood. But was Mancini a caretaker in his final season? I don't think he was. Certainly undermined, but he was the manager, it's just that recruitment was taken out of his hands.

Bony is an interesting one, because I read there was serious disagreements behind the scenes. But perhaps not in the way you assume. I read Txiki wasn't keen on him and Pellegrini demanded him as he said our striker options weren't deep enough, and Bony was the top scorer in the league that calendar year, so he pushed for him. Who knows what the truth is, though.

I think your analysis of Pellegrini's tenure is probably fair. I fancied us for semi finals before the season started, but it's still a great achievement. Quarter finals probably would have been par, so he's already over-achieved this season in Europe. He's grossly under-achieved in the league this year though. On paper we should have pushed Chelsea hard for the league, the fact that they have fallen off a cliff and we are 4th is a rank under-achievement.

Last season we under-achieved in the league too. We can't win it every year of course, but we certainly should be challenging every year in my view. We didn't really put up much of a challenge last season. So 2 out of 3 seasons he's fallen well short in the league which is the bread and butter, that's not good enough in my view.

Yes, he has had some difficulties outside of his control, but show me a manager who has had none. Perhaps he is being forced in to playing a system he doesn't want to play this season, or perhaps he was advised to sure us up a bit in midfield after us getting ripped apart through the middle last season. Whichever is true, there certainly doesn't seem to have been a noticable improvement.

Perhaps Sterling and KDB weren't his men and he didn't want them. I don't think there is a coach in Europe who wouldn't have taken them if offered though. We went balls deep with recruitment this summer, and we've regressed further. I think it's fair to say they haven't all been his first picks of the exact type of player he wants. But it's also fair to say he has grossly underachieved with the talent at his disposal, no matter what the circumstances.
 
You are totally failing to understand my point. No, he hasn't been hard done to. I never said he has. I said he's been in an incredibly unique position.
I've followed football for 30 years, I can honestly say I've never come across a situation like Pellegrini's. If you can feel free to share.

I'm not argueing about the quality of players signed. I'm arguing weather they are the ones Pellegrini wants or wanted. Ibra was the greatest centre forward in the World, Pep didn't want or like him.

No, he's never put doubt in the club's mind, nor the fans. He has been a caretaker, how do we know, how does anyone know what he may have achieved had he had free reign? I don't know weather he's shite or not, I'm not prepared to judge him without all the information in an incredibly unusual situation. I can say that the likes of Ferguson, Mancini, Wenger, Klopp, Mourinho and as he's been mentioned elsewhere Clough would manage in this situation. Do you think Kloop would succed at Liverpool if he knew regardless of his job he would be replaced by Gerrard? If he knew he had three years regardless and players were being signed for Gerrard and Gerrad's system?
If you're honest, you'll know the answer.

I have repeatedly said he has not done the best job. But he is being judged without context. There can be no context because it's a truely unique situation.

As I say, I'd be interested to know of any clubs who've employed a manager whilst already having a deal in place for his successor.

I believe we should judge the manager based on his ability to perform with the tools at his disposal. If what you're saying is correct and he was working with players he didn't want, why didn't he simply walk away last summer as he had the option to? Why would he continue for another season? Money? If so, then why defend him?

Your point is that Pellegrini didn't have free reign, but where's the EVIDENCE of that? None of us can pick his mind and say 'Oh he'd have signed Vidal but Pep didn't want him so he got Fernando instead', or 'Oh he'd have signed Isco but Pep didn't fancy him so we got Sterling instead'. We'll never be able to say. Or, we may have to wait years till he writes his memoirs
 
He was the only manager I can remember in football history employed with his replacement already in discussion about the job. That is the definition of a caretaker.

He has only ever been a caretaker. He hasn't signed the players he wanted. He's been handed players bought with a future manager in mind.

To me Pellegrini liked two strikers, painfully obvious. Obvious to a fault. Yet, the manager who clearly likes two strikers is left with 1. 2 if you count Bony. An 18 year old is always a gamble. Both he and Mancini, even Ferguson for that matter have insisted you need four in the PL. Which manager is famous for wanting just 1 striker and often plays without a striker? Yup. Guardiola. So, does two senior strikers sound ideal for a manager who likes 4 or a manager that likes 1 or non?

He favours two centre mids. City have left him hamstrung in this department too.
Nothing I have seen from him would indicate Sterling was signed with Pellegrini in mind.

He has been hamstrung by Txiki and the impending Gaurdiola from day one. He was only ever here till Pep was made available.
Year 1, put out Mancini's fires. Done and won the league.
Year 2. Improve on a PL win and build or work in a holistic way. He failed. As did Txiki, Fernando & Mangala...
Year 3. Keep the seat warm for a manager he and all the players knew was impending. Work with players signed for another coach. For me, he should have won the league. I beieve he would of with less injuries. He has overachieved in the CL.

Imagine the havoc Mancini would have caused had he not been able to pick his transfer targets. We don't need to, he called Marwood out in public.

Pellegrini's set up is simple and uncomplicated. Two energetic midfielders. Attacking full backs. Wide men that like to cut in and rightly or wrongly two out and out strikers.
We've signed players for another manager, another system, a system the current manager doesn't use. We have as litterally as possible asked a Leopard to change his spots.

To judge a manager in these circumstances is very difficult as I've never come across this scenario before. I doubt many have.

Difficult to disagree with any of this.

With that in mind, guardiola HAS to rip up trees from day one. No excuses. The whole club has been geared towards his tenure for years, arguable leading to our underperforming in our bread and butter (the league) in the process.

No excuses. 2 titles in 3 years. Progression in the champs lge (which means reaching a final and winning it in the next 3 seasons) , continuing to win domestic cups (at least 2 in the next 3 years). Achieve this and guardiola has reached 'par'. Beat it and he has done well. Not achieve this and he has been a failure.

No excuses.
 
I disagree. According to the Collins dictionary the definition of caretaker manager is someone who temporarily holds the office of manager at a football club. I don't think you could argue that 3 years is in any way temporary.

He did have some difficulties to overcome, such as the recruitment being done with a long term view. He probably inherited some players he didn't want, but I don't think that makes him a caretaker. I think most managers in Europe have players bought for them who aren't their first choice. I think Goetze was one such player for Pep at Bayern. And even Lewandowski I don't think Guardiola wanted initially, although he's now flourished under him.

Mancini in his final season had the likes of Scott Sinclair and Javi Garcia bought for him, I don't think they were his choices. They were the choices of Brian Marwood. But was Mancini a caretaker in his final season? I don't think he was. Certainly undermined, but he was the manager, it's just that recruitment was taken out of his hands.

Bony is an interesting one, because I read there was serious disagreements behind the scenes. But perhaps not in the way you assume. I read Txiki wasn't keen on him and Pellegrini demanded him as he said our striker options weren't deep enough, and Bony was the top scorer in the league that calendar year, so he pushed for him. Who knows what the truth is, though.

I think your analysis of Pellegrini's tenure is probably fair. I fancied us for semi finals before the season started, but it's still a great achievement. Quarter finals probably would have been par, so he's already over-achieved this season in Europe. He's grossly under-achieved in the league this year though. On paper we should have pushed Chelsea hard for the league, the fact that they have fallen off a cliff and we are 4th is a rank under-achievement.

Last season we under-achieved in the league too. We can't win it every year of course, but we certainly should be challenging every year in my view. We didn't really put up much of a challenge last season. So 2 out of 3 seasons he's fallen well short in the league which is the bread and butter, that's not good enough in my view.

Yes, he has had some difficulties outside of his control, but show me a manager who has had none. Perhaps he is being forced in to playing a system he doesn't want to play this season, or perhaps he was advised to sure us up a bit in midfield after us getting ripped apart through the middle last season. Whichever is true, there certainly doesn't seem to have been a noticable improvement.

Perhaps Sterling and KDB weren't his men and he didn't want them. I don't think there is a coach in Europe who wouldn't have taken them if offered though. We went balls deep with recruitment this summer, and we've regressed further. I think it's fair to say they haven't all been his first picks of the exact type of player he wants. But it's also fair to say he has grossly underachieved with the talent at his disposal, no matter what the circumstances.


Not interested in a dictionary. A manager employed with his successor already in negotiations is a caretaker. It won't be in the dictionary as it's unique.
He has been brought in to hold the fought, keep the fires buring, keep Pep's seat warm. What ever tired cliche you want.

To say he's underachieved you need a controle arguement. A benchmark, a parallel to draw. There isn't one. It's unchartered water, impossible to judge because we have no idea if he is doing the job he wants to do in the way he wants.

His remit maybe to make top 4, advance in the CL, keep players happy and conduct himself in a distinguished way.

As I've said, your Avram Grant and a Chelsea team that can manage its self is my exact point. We've 'built' a team that requires the best in the World and millions spending on it.
 
I believe we should judge the manager based on his ability to perform with the tools at his disposal. If what you're saying is correct and he was working with players he didn't want, why didn't he simply walk away last summer as he had the option to? Why would he continue for another season? Money? If so, then why defend him?

Your point is that Pellegrini didn't have free reign, but where's the EVIDENCE of that? None of us can pick his mind and say 'Oh he'd have signed Vidal but Pep didn't want him so he got Fernando instead', or 'Oh he'd have signed Isco but Pep didn't fancy him so we got Sterling instead'. We'll never be able to say. Or, we may have to wait years till he writes his memoirs

The announcement of Txiki on the club's own website outlined Txiki's role. Recruitment & first team affairs were at the top of the list.

I'm saying it's incredibly hard to judge him in a situation that's totally unique in football.

You're right, non of us can pick his mind, we are all second guessing the situation.
What we can all see, our squad is incredibly light in key areas and key men in key positions have been allowed to regress alarmingly without being replaced.
 
I've been guilty of slagging him off in the past and I do think that he is a bang average manager who is a hindrance to us. He's very similar to Roberto Martinez IMO.

That said I will still clap him at the end of the season and wish him all the best for the future.

I just think that we have been poor domestically for 2 seasons now. We've regressed since his title win and that's hard to watch when you see the quality in this side.
I don't think even his ardent fans will deny he's took us backwards in the PL, we've regressed pretty alarmingly under him. CL final could make up for such a poor last two years.
 
Too little too late. Two away wins against teams who have nothing to play for, whilst good for us, doesn't really tell us anything new. The CL campaign has been great for the club and the fans and I'm happy to give him his due. Overall though, for two years we've been poor in the league. Whatever yardstick you choose to use there's no escaping that. The finishing positions might not look bad on paper but you can't tell me we've been anywhere near good enough to claim we deserve to have won it.
The only myth when it comes to his mistakes seems to come from his last couple of supporters. The fact your using one example in a game last week after he's been here nearly three years isn't enough to convince me otherwise.

Have you read Pellers win stats lol! The thousands who sing Manuel's name every week know where it's at. Not the serial Bluemoan whingers!
 
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