birchwoodgingerste
Well-Known Member
Wat job do you do?
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What do you think is wrong?
- Thread starter ono
- Start date
jimmygrimblesboots
Well-Known Member
Why is it incredulous?
Its my opinion Gpc woudnt have accepted it
As much as i h8 utd he Got Reactions
Mp doesnt!
its incredulous to bring the rags into the debate , why not use Brian Clough , Don Revie , Joe Mercer even f*cking Mourinho etc., all brilliant managers who didnt stand any shite from players. Or perhaps my pure hatred of anything raggish is clouding my judgement :)
Just needs a change. I don't think he's fallen out with anyone in the way Bobby did, I think he's just already told them everything he has to tell them, so now he's just repeating himself and it's less impactful. It's like when you go out with a girl for a long time, after a while you already know all their stories, you know pretty much everything about them and it's hard to be as interested as when you first started going out. You start going out with a new girl and they've got your undivided attention again.
People bang on about the need for stability, but I honestly don't think it works in football, not most cases anyway. The only one recently to do it with actually success was Bacon, but he replaced assistants every couple of years and they were the ones who did most of the day to day training and the like, so the players got the shake up through that. Structural stability is important, to stop you burning through hundreds of players and never giving them a chance to settle, but I think managers are expendable and need refreshing pretty regularly. As Bela Guttmann said, the third season is fatal.
People bang on about the need for stability, but I honestly don't think it works in football, not most cases anyway. The only one recently to do it with actually success was Bacon, but he replaced assistants every couple of years and they were the ones who did most of the day to day training and the like, so the players got the shake up through that. Structural stability is important, to stop you burning through hundreds of players and never giving them a chance to settle, but I think managers are expendable and need refreshing pretty regularly. As Bela Guttmann said, the third season is fatal.
MillisleBlue
Well-Known Member
Hard to believe that any Manager wouldn't struggle with having so many key players repeatedly injured.
jimmygrimblesboots
Well-Known Member
Its a forum to discuss opinion
And thats mine jimmy
Fair comment , i would prefer not to give anything to do with the dark side any credit at all , the fact you referred to him as the GPC is heart warming though , and if we all agreed on every subject , it would be a very boring forum.
We are an absolute shambles at the moment. The defending is consistantly shambolic and who is suprised with Demechelis there most of the time, he is the worst centre back since Titus Bramble, Kolorov is ok going forward but hopeless defensively, Sterling done fuck all for me. But the manager is the biggest elephant in the room, Should of got rid after no trophies last season but he needs his P45 next week. Half the people on this forum could do better than passionless clueless pelligrini, FACT !! The sooner Pep arrives the better !!!!
After watching us struggle badly again today, what do you think the main problem(s) is/are? Does the problem simply lay with the manager, or certain players? Or does the problem go deeper than that for you?
For me, we are totally stuck between a rock and a hard place in terms of what we are trying to achieve.
On the pitch, over the last 12-15 months, I've been struggling to understand what our philosophy is -In terms of style of play and in terms of team selection and player recruitment. Under Mancini we tended to play a slow possession based type of game for the majority, but we also had it in our locker to totally shut up shop, even if that meant playing for a draw.
We still play a fairly similar style of football now, except we play with two wide men who maintain their width. For me, this is a big problem because it increases the distance between the players so the ball takes longer to get to its target. Commentators always point out how slow we are in possession and this is the main reason. Because the ball takes so long to travel to its target, the opposition can easily get bodies around the receiver before he is able to make himself comfortable with the ball. We only have a handful of players who have enough ability and composure to deal with this kind of pressure. Against Liverpool it was evident that none of those players were defenders. Toure was the only one out of the back 7 and he was double teamed and shut down.
Well we play attacking football first and foremost.
The systems of Mancin and Pellegrini aren't as comparable as they first appear because the game plans are different. Mancini played a slow and methodical game which relied on a sort of war of attrition approach to attacking chances. A little like Arsenal, if we just keep moving it around the box then we'll find an opportunity and obviously they can't score if we've got the ball. Pellegrini's system works differently because he sacrifices possession through a more risky style of attacking with the idea of getting in behind the opposition.
Whereas Mancini's idea of defence was to create situations where we would overload the player on the ball, Pellers is predicated on the idea that one on one situations are only as a last resort and the ball should be won back by intercepting a pass. These are kind of opposites from each other; Mancini pressed the man on the ball attempting to nick it with a guy in support to clean up/block the pass, whereas Pellers uses the man pressing the player as a way of trying to force the pass so somebody else can nick it. This comes back to how both wanted to attack - in the past we attacked in a slower type of build up so we were always playing against 11 behind the ball and we accepted that, the new system means that we can intercept and break quickly to create one on one chances or get the players in our team who can attack quickly with venom such as Aguero, Sterling, KDB, etc on the ball with a sight of goal.
That's the thing about footy though, every system has its advantages and disadvantages and balancing them is tricky. You're right that some of our players lack composure on the ball in defence though this again is situational. I think they lack composure because they lack passing options not because we use wingers but because we don't have the easy option as a defensive midfielder to play it to any more. Essentially I agree but think the problem is in the two man midfield rather than the extra width, and the fact that we seem to drill into our players that long balls to the man up front are an acceptable get out of jail route whereas under Mancini that was almost blasphemous. Without a defensive midfielder to provide another option, the teams who will press our defence in possession make us predictable. They only really have the keeper, the other centre back or the usually the fullback to give the ball to. Whereas Gareth Barry or Yaya Toure used to be that reliable lynchpin in our team who anybody could look to if they were in possessional trouble, Fernando just isn't providing this when we do use a three and neither Toure or Fernandinho realistically can cover the entire backline whilst they have to look for the quick attacking pass when in a two.
Regarding today, the way we press just isn't set out to be used against a one touch passing system like the Stoke forwards were operating with. Outside of Barcelona there's nobody really who can operate that type of quality on a regular basis and Stoke would be the last you'd expect. This is just a problem with tactical flexibility in general rather than specific to us - the manager would have spent the last three days on the training ground preparing for this match and as you know it takes weeks and months to get the players practiced enough in a pressing system to make it second nature. You can't just see it isn't working then call an audible 10 minutes in and say "right lads, forgot our entire pressing game plan and do something else". I mean what else? For all we know that could have been a ten minute purple patch of lovely one touch football from Stoke and we've just abandoned our historically very successful pressing plans because of it.
Under Mancini, Silva and Nasri were often our widest midfielders, and they obviously both had a tendancy to cut in with the ball to play centrally. Zabaleta and Clichy both provided width for us and because of the space vacated by both Silva and Nasri, both had space in the final third. Zabaleta and even Richards both had a lot of success on the overlap, and because of the shape of the midfield, were both able to create this overlap inside the opponents penalty area. Currently the majority of our overlaps occur outside the penalty area (Kolarov and Sterling occasionally link up inside but it nearly always leads to a shot from an impossible angle) and in much wider areas, and as such are much less dangerous. Furthermore, because we still try to overlap (especially so on the right) the winger and full back end up occupying exactly the same space. Not only do they often get in each others way (Navas and Sagna) but we also leave ourselves light centrally so when the ball finally makes its way into the box, there's not really anything to hit. Defensively, because of the width we try and maintain, we leave ourselves so vulnerable when we lose the ball. We cannot close the gaps and as a result look utterly chaotic at the back. It's testament to how good Kompany is that he can somehow hold it all together despite of the problems. Unfortunately for us, he is constantly injured. Injuries in general are a huge problem for us. We have had 37 different injuries so far this season and it is only December. For us, our injuries occur mainly down the spine of the team and whilst bad luck is a factor, it hardly shines a bright light on our fitness and conditioning team.
Again though this is just a consequence of how we set out. Our full backs are not as often providing that overlap because as you point out we have the wingers doing that and the speed in which we try to attack doesn't really leave them much option. Obviously they gamble with their run so they only really end up on the ball when the attack breaks down or slows down. It's not really a fair criticism because under Mancini as you say, the fullbacks were a major part of our attacking strategy because we built up the attack slower and were used as a "surprise option" when everybody was pressed in deep against the defensive wall. We still have that surprise option now (and this for the record is where the wind fucked us more than it did Stoke), but to utilise that we pack one wing with short passing then hit a cross field ball/quick switch through centre mid to the other wing who now has space and a bit of time before the defenders can slide across. The people we play in front of them now just means that we're not going to be as bulletproof and we rely more on the defensive attributes of our full backs where we used to value their attacking more.
I'd argue we lack anything to hit in the box due to inept movement from our current striker rather than any systemic flaws. Aguero doesn't seem to have an issue getting service and Nacho is doing alright too. I've had my say on Bony before so won't labour the point in this increasingly long post, but half the time he plays in midfield rather than where he should be which is on the exact line of defence which pushes them back and allows the lad behind him a bit of space inbetween the lines of midfield. I mean if you play against Aguero you are wary of him on your shoulder because you know he can curve his run, drop his shoulder and be gone before you've even noticed so they play a bit more cautiously. With Bony they can push right up knowing that he isn't going to turn and beat them for pace nor is he going to drop it off his chest, swivel and stick it out wide for our pacey players. Defenders know against Bony that they always have a few seconds to adjust their line when the ball is coming in.
Defensively I just think we lack organisation when neither Kompany or Mangala plays (and causes confusion when they play together). Demi and Otamendi are more passive defenders who seemingly rely on their partners a lot to get things sorted out in terms of where they are going to start from as a line whereas Mangala and Kompany are more demanding. This leads to some funky situations where neither of them defend properly, they all decide to defend at the same time and go diving in or they stand around looking pretty presuming somebody else will do it. I actually thought Otamendi had one of his better games today and against Juve in terms of defending on the front foot and getting his lines sorted out.
Recruitment has also been slightly baffling for some time. We have had an obvious weakness in both full back positions. Only Zabaleta has really proven himself to be top drawer for us and in his 30's he now looks fairly injury ridden. Regardless, for a possession based team, we surely require athletic, technically excellent full backs who can take the ball under pressure. The Liverpool game probably highlights just how far away from that we currently are right now.
Attacking wise, De Bruyne and Sterling are both good players, but I wouldn't necessarily say that both of them fit within our style of play. It's difficult to judge properly because we haven't had a fully fit team this season, but Sterling requires space to run into to be at his best, and De Bruyne is also more of a counter attacking threat. Neither have a reliable enough touch or first time pass to play how we are tying to play. Both of them look much better in the transition - especially De Bruyne with his early delivery and incisiveness. Sterling still has his qualities and is clearly a long term investment, but while I appreciate that we have paid excessively because of his potential, it does trouble me potential can be so expensive. Furthermore, when other top teams have a 20 year old potential world beater on their hands, they also don't have to rely on him every single game.
Part of me questions whether or not we would have been in for him had he not been English. The same is probably true of Delph, although it's clear to me that he is seen as a Fernandinho back up option. I still don't think we fully addressed the centre of the pitch over the summer. Our midfield was outdone by a totally make shift midfield 3 today. Neither Affelly (spelling) or Cameron are naturals yet we had no answer. I do think that we had a much more pressing issue with regards to needing a central midfielder, yet we spent £100m on wide men who are both probably more suited to teams who play a faster tempo, more direct style of football. We sometimes appear to sign players based on purely on their form for their recpective clubs without putting much thought into how they will fit in to our system.
Our centre midfield is terrible compared to the European rivals that we're targeting, I made a big point about this in August and still think so today. We needed a centre mid in addition to Delph of the highest quality and didn't get one. We also have fullbacks which you rightly say are "good enough" which is disappointing given the quality elsewhere in the squad, and we still need a quality striker
But that's fine. Squad building is a 5/10 year pursuit and not a desperate window by window affair. Everybody rightly noted our increasing average age of the squad in the summer and that now we were out of FFP it was time to start transitioning the squad block by block. I think with one or two exceptions we've done extremely well on this front and am overall happy. We addressed some major issues in the summer including our homegrown quota, the lack of a danger from the left wing which we've missed since Bellamy and the need for a top quality partner for Kompany. Sterling and De Bruyne were bought to play that fast moving and pacey interception/counter based football creating one on ones. The fact that we're not currently playing that due to other performance reasons isn't really a reflection of their lack of ability to fit in.
Finally I think a big problem is the fact that Pellegrini clearly isn't our first choice for a manager. There's an inevitability about his reign coming to end in the next 6 months and it looks to be translating to the pitch. So do we wing our way through the season, or do we act now?
Well obviously he has the season. We're not in 9th or anything and we can't get a manager in for six months because it will just be the same scenario as we have now but with a new guy who will also want a payoff.