What has the UK become?

Don't forget the free Church of Scotland (Wee Frees) and the Free Church (continuing) aka Wee Wee Frees. They're against sex in case it leads to dancing.

View attachment 101175

Yes, but in fairness to them, they do not run Scotland and impose their views on the majority.

I don't really care what privations religious groups impose upon themselves as long as they keep it to themselves. (As long as the law is not broken. No rape or child abuse for example.)

What I object to is religious groups trying to impose their batshit nonsense on the rest of us. That's why I don't like a state being run by any brand of religion whatever. I am not being discriminatory here.
 
Yes, but in fairness to them, they do not run Scotland and impose their views on the majority.

I don't really care what privations religious groups impose upon themselves as long as they keep it to themselves. (As long as the law is not broken. No rape or child abuse for example.)

What I object to is religious groups trying to impose their batshit nonsense on the rest of us. That's why I don't like a state being run by any brand of religion whatever. I am not being discriminatory here.


Everyone should think this way surely? Unless you are a drone of any given religion that is.
 
One might also come at this statement from another direction, namely, that of the history of previous Muslim states and societies. What has been the verdict on them?

Interestingly, about a century ago, Western scholars of Islam were commending Islam for its tolerance:

First of all, here is Hamilton Gibb:

“It possesses a magnificent tradition of inter-racial understanding and cooperation. No other society has such a record of success uniting in an equality of status, of opportunity, and of endeavours, so many and so various races of mankind.”

Then there is the assessment of Sir Thomas Arnold:

“On the whole, unbelievers have enjoyed under Muhammadan rule a measure of toleration, the like of which is not to be found in Europe until quite modern times. Forcible conversion was forbidden, in accordance with the precepts of the Quran… The very existence of so many Christian sects and communities in countries that have been for centuries under Muhammadan rule is an abiding testimony to the toleration they have enjoyed, and shows that the persecutions they have from time to time been called upon to endure at the hands of bigots and fanatics, have been excited by some special and local circumstances rather than inspired by a settled principle of intolerance… But such oppression is wholly without the sanction of Muhammadan law, either religious or civil”.

More recently, Bernard Lewis (certainly not a writer who could be said to be overly sympathetic to the faith) has written this:

‘Until the seventeenth century, there can be no doubt that, all in all, the treatment by Muslim governments and populations of those who believed otherwise was more tolerant and respectful than was normal in Europe… there is nothing in Islamic history to compare with the massacres and expulsions, the inquisitions and persecutions that Christians habitually inflicted on non-Christians, and still more on each other. In the lands of Islam, persecution was the exception; in Christendom sadly, it was often the norm.’

Why did these scholars arrive at these conclusions? One reason might be because of their awareness of Islamic history.

For example, when they weren’t busily trying to establish its own perverse and imagined version of how Muhammad’s original community at Medina lived, ISIS were known to have cast admiring glances at the Abbasid Caliphate. Which is a bit odd, as in the Baghdad of Harun, Jews, Christians, Muslims, and irreligious philosophers were all engaged in active, free flowing debate, both in court and private salons around the city.

As the British scholar, Edward Granville Brown put it:

‘The pious Muslims of Mecca and Medina who came thither were scandalized to find unbelievers invested with the highest offices at court, and learned men of every religion holding friendly debate as to high questions of ontology and philosophy, in which, by common consent, all appeal to revealed scripture was forbidden.’

Of course, since then we have seen the advent of Wahhabism/Salafi-jihadism and its dissemination from Saudi Arabia as well as the Iranian revolution which brought to power a Shia theocracy that is similarly warped.

Here’s William Dalrymple on the former:

“It is no coincidence that Saudi Arabia provided 15 of the 19 hijackers on 11 September. Ever since the Thirties, the Saudi regime has vigorously exported Wahhabi Islam, the most severe, puritanical incarnation of a religion which historically has been remarkable for its tolerance and syncretism.The Saudis have used their oil wealth to try to kill off tolerant forms of Islam. Saudi money financed the most extreme Jihadis fighting in Afghanistan and the camps in which they were trained. It was these camps that produced the Afghan Arabs who form the hard core of al-Qaeda as well as a myriad of other similar organisations. Yet America, dependent on Saudi oil, continues to ignore the culpability of the Saudis, and allows them to suppress human rights as brutally as the Taliban…The Saudis now dominate as much as 90 per cent of Arabic language newspapers, magazines, publishing houses, radio and TV. They have also promoted the mass radicalisation of Pakistan, Afghanistan and Kurdistan by funding the hard-core Wahhabi, Salafi and Deobandi schools that now dominate education there.”

Given the extent to which the Saudis and Iranians have succeeded in hijacking the faith, it is therefore understandable that some may be apprehensive about the prospect of a Muslim state.

But, given all the recent declarations about the failure of multiculturalism by the likes of politicians such as Merkel, Sarkozy, Cameron, and most recently Suella Braverman, it's also somewhat ironic that past Islamic societies actually might provide something of a template for what a successful multicultural society might look like.

One might also come at this statement from another direction, namely, that of the history of previous Muslim states and societies. What has been the verdict on them?

Interestingly, about a century ago, Western scholars of Islam were commending Islam for its tolerance:

First of all, here is Hamilton Gibb:

“It possesses a magnificent tradition of inter-racial understanding and cooperation. No other society has such a record of success uniting in an equality of status, of opportunity, and of endeavours, so many and so various races of mankind.”

Then there is the assessment of Sir Thomas Arnold:

“On the whole, unbelievers have enjoyed under Muhammadan rule a measure of toleration, the like of which is not to be found in Europe until quite modern times. Forcible conversion was forbidden, in accordance with the precepts of the Quran… The very existence of so many Christian sects and communities in countries that have been for centuries under Muhammadan rule is an abiding testimony to the toleration they have enjoyed, and shows that the persecutions they have from time to time been called upon to endure at the hands of bigots and fanatics, have been excited by some special and local circumstances rather than inspired by a settled principle of intolerance… But such oppression is wholly without the sanction of Muhammadan law, either religious or civil”.

More recently, Bernard Lewis (certainly not a writer who could be said to be overly sympathetic to the faith) has written this:

‘Until the seventeenth century, there can be no doubt that, all in all, the treatment by Muslim governments and populations of those who believed otherwise was more tolerant and respectful than was normal in Europe… there is nothing in Islamic history to compare with the massacres and expulsions, the inquisitions and persecutions that Christians habitually inflicted on non-Christians, and still more on each other. In the lands of Islam, persecution was the exception; in Christendom sadly, it was often the norm.’

Why did these scholars arrive at these conclusions? One reason might be because of their awareness of Islamic history.

For example, when they weren’t busily trying to establish its own perverse and imagined version of how Muhammad’s original community at Medina lived, ISIS were known to have cast admiring glances at the Abbasid Caliphate. Which is a bit odd, as in the Baghdad of Harun, Jews, Christians, Muslims, and irreligious philosophers were all engaged in active, free flowing debate, both in court and private salons around the city.

As the British scholar, Edward Granville Brown put it:

‘The pious Muslims of Mecca and Medina who came thither were scandalized to find unbelievers invested with the highest offices at court, and learned men of every religion holding friendly debate as to high questions of ontology and philosophy, in which, by common consent, all appeal to revealed scripture was forbidden.’

Of course, since then we have seen the advent of Wahhabism/Salafi-jihadism and its dissemination from Saudi Arabia as well as the Iranian revolution which brought to power a Shia theocracy that is similarly warped.

Here’s William Dalrymple on the former:

“It is no coincidence that Saudi Arabia provided 15 of the 19 hijackers on 11 September. Ever since the Thirties, the Saudi regime has vigorously exported Wahhabi Islam, the most severe, puritanical incarnation of a religion which historically has been remarkable for its tolerance and syncretism.The Saudis have used their oil wealth to try to kill off tolerant forms of Islam. Saudi money financed the most extreme Jihadis fighting in Afghanistan and the camps in which they were trained. It was these camps that produced the Afghan Arabs who form the hard core of al-Qaeda as well as a myriad of other similar organisations. Yet America, dependent on Saudi oil, continues to ignore the culpability of the Saudis, and allows them to suppress human rights as brutally as the Taliban…The Saudis now dominate as much as 90 per cent of Arabic language newspapers, magazines, publishing houses, radio and TV. They have also promoted the mass radicalisation of Pakistan, Afghanistan and Kurdistan by funding the hard-core Wahhabi, Salafi and Deobandi schools that now dominate education there.”

Given the extent to which the Saudis and Iranians have succeeded in hijacking the faith, it is therefore understandable that some may be apprehensive about the prospect of a Muslim state.

But, given all the recent declarations about the failure of multiculturalism by the likes of politicians such as Merkel, Sarkozy, Cameron, and most recently Suella Braverman, it's also somewhat ironic that past Islamic societies actually might provide something of a template for what a successful multicultural society might look like.
Successful as long as you are a Man that is. And as long as any non Muslim is happy to pay their “Jizja” Taxes merely for existing.
 
Yes, but in fairness to them, they do not run Scotland and impose their views on the majority.

I don't really care what privations religious groups impose upon themselves as long as they keep it to themselves. (As long as the law is not broken. No rape or child abuse for example.)

What I object to is religious groups trying to impose their batshit nonsense on the rest of us. That's why I don't like a state being run by any brand of religion whatever. I am not being discriminatory here
Belief is a funny thing some people get so attached to their beliefs that they want to impose them on others it’s not just religion though politics is exactly the same
 
Successful as long as you are a Man that is. And as long as any non Muslim is happy to pay their “Jizja” Taxes merely for existing.
In the Ottoman Empire the Muslims actually paid more tax than the non Muslims, all societies require some form of taxation in order to function, income tax was a bit hard to collect back in the day, however they collect it be the number of windows you have or your religion
 
From John Bowen's Blaming Islam.

".... anti-Muslim writers....assert that Muslims will continue to have high birth rates because the Prophet told them to and because it serves the Islamist strategy to conquer Europe. Anti-Muslim websites predict that in 2050 Europe will be half Muslim. Conservative pundits from Patrick Buchanan and Bernard Lewis to the commentators at the partisan Population Research Institute warn that Europe and Christianity will succumb to Islam because of differential birth rates. The now-viral "Muslim Demographics" video on YouTube tells viewers that France has 1.8 children per family but "Muslims 8.1 children per family" and that "in just 39 years, France will be an Islamic Republic" (Both the BBC and the website Tiny Frog have assembled detailed rebuttals).

Putting aside the faulty data - France does not even collect demographic data by religion - these arguments have two deficiencies. First, total fertility rates (TFR) are falling in many of the Muslim-majority countries sending poor people to Europe. In Morocco, for example, during the period 1985-2003, the TFR fell from 4.5 to 2.5 and is projected to fall to 1.9 by 2030-35, thus approximating European rates. (France currently has a TFR of 2.1). For Muslim-majority countries taken as a whole, TFRs are projected to fall from from 4.3 during 1990-95 to 2.3 in 2030-35, while TFR in developed, non-majority Muslim countries will remain stable at 1.7.

Second, Muslim women born in European countries are doing precisely what demographers predict: having fewer children. Fertility rates for Muslim women born in European countries are declining quickly, heading toward rates for non-Muslim natives. A recent Pew Research Forum study projects that that the percentage of Muslims in Europe will grow from 6 percent in 2010 to 8 percent in 2030. The countries with the highest concentrations of Muslims will be France and Belgium, each with just over 10 percent.

We are far from the scary demographic projections."


View attachment 101147
Peter Oborne's book "The fate of Abraham" is a good read on the subject, especially around the area of vilification of muslims.
 
There are different kinds of Islam just as there are different kinds of Christianity. Therefore you cannot and shouldn't generalise about either.

I don't have to stretch my brain too far to think of intolerant Christian societies.

17th Century Scottish Calvinism
Spanish Catholicism from the 15th-18th century. (The Spanish Inquisition was not just a TV joke.)
Early modern New England with its witch crazes. (Arising from crazed Calvinists too batty to be tolerated in England and their descendants.)

Just three examples, but there are lots more. The problem seems to arise when a particularly hard-line version of a religion takes control of a state. This is most unlikely to happen in the UK, where most people are either moderate or nominal Christians or agnostics. However, the loopy form of alleged Christianity practised in certain American states has lately got a small foothold among the loopy extremes of the Tory Party. It is a tumour that needs watching just in case it spreads.

None of these extreme tyrannical forms of Christianity are likely to be found in your local C of E/Methodist/Catholic church. Not least because such churches have no real power, except over their adherents.
If you have a few hours look at the more extreme Christian Evangelicism in the States and look at the "rapture"

Fucking scary.
 
In the Ottoman Empire the Muslims actually paid more tax than the non Muslims, all societies require some form of taxation in order to function, income tax was a bit hard to collect back in the day, however they collect it be the number of windows you have or your religion
I’m sure many of our Eastern European Posters can relate to us how enlightened the Ottoman Empire was -Jon Hunyadi and Vlad Tepes beg to differ
 

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