Kane wasn't pulling the defender......??
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World Cup VAR
- Thread starter stonerblue
- Start date
Kane wasn't pulling the defender......??
Neville Kneville
Well-Known Member
Kane wasn't pulling the defender......??
He did.
At first he wasn't then he did, then he let go again. Piquet, not Ramos, was the initial foul today; arm round him, clear pulling of the shirt.
Clattenburg decided for some reason that didn't matter so concentrated on Ramos.
This is where it all goes pear shaped all the time. The next day Clattenburg will say the first instance is the pen.
He shouldn't have the choice but they deliberately, imo, leave these areas so that refs can manipulate football. Witb this system they can get a call in the ear, allowing them to influence games more than they do already but with no set rules in place
prestonibbo_mcfc
Well-Known Member
Then it shouldn't have gone to var.The fact not everyone on here agrees one way or the other says var probably right as not obvious error
There's 2 different things at play here. Of the VAR reviews, they got 94% right. As confirmed by the IFAB. This is not subjective as such, the IFAB set the rules (no remit for VAR) so they are merely commentating on how accurate VAR is, against the rules they themselves set. They got the Iran penalty wrong....
Where the issues lie, is where VAR does and doesn't kick in. Argies non pen, Kane incident and Serbia non pen being 3 examples off the top of my head... plus some others... if we take the IFAB report I think there were 18 or 19 VAR decisions, 94% correct. But it missed several decisions, 5 or 6, so if you factor those in, you get around the 75% I mentioned previously. I think this is a fairer number in relation to how successful VAR's been, than the 94% quoted by the IFAB, which only takes into play those actual decisions referred... so yes I agree with you to a point, the IFAB report is useful, but doesn't tell the full story.
It is subjective as you need to interpret level of force, intent things like that that can never be written into law. Of course IFAB is going to interpret everything but an obvious error as the correct decision. PGMOL did the same when they assessed that they made no more than 4 or 5 bad decisions a game. Common sense tells you otherwise.
As for one team being diasadvantaged, I just don't agree. There's been no evidence of one team getting specifically harshly treated. Where it has missed decisions, it's been ad hoc and spread across various teams. Absoloutly no evidence it's been used to favour one team over another. If this did happen, then fair enough it would need addressing, but there's no evidence of this in the World Cup so far. And remember, VAR doesn't make the original decisions worse (Iran pen apart). If I was in charge of the game and could get 75% of incorrect decisions corrected, I'd be all for it.
If there is three correct VAR decisions and one incorrect a team has been disadvantaged. Possibly to the extent that the result of the game is changed.
I don't believe the 75% is unrealistic. Bit of a back of a fag packet analysis for sure, but it's around that for me. It's a vast improvement over the old system, even in its infancy and with the limitations it has. Needs further work for sure, but what other system gives you that much improvement that's available ...?? If you have a better idea, please share...
I want the authorities to iron out fairly clear flaws in VAR and then introduce it. Once we bring in an inferior product it will be so much harder to change it. So get it right, iron out the inconsistencies and flaws and then phase it in.
To go back to the old system, and get 75% approx more incorrect decisions is ludicrous for me....
And to me it's ludicrous to have access to the technology we have, and accept a system that even those heavily in favour accept gets wrong 1 time out of every 4. That will affect the result of dozens of games of the course of a season.
They don't even know their own rules.
What they should be doing is shadowing every major game with a v.a.r. system & deciding 100% how each situation is interpreted.
The arguments on here for handball given & not given, holding given & not given etc etc are a fucking joke. They are too close to split. If Kane's is a pen so is Piquet today etc etc.
The ref & v.a.r. panel should have no doubt how to interpret it because they should be running simulations week in week out then getting the refs together & ordering them to follow that interpretation.
They could but they don't because imo they prefer to be able to control the outcome of football games. Which is why Liverpool got to the CL final & would get the same decisions with v a.r.
I don't disagree with large parts of this. However, there not VAR issues, but rather issues with Refs understanding the laws properly.
Then it shouldn't have gone to var.
Incorrect, VAR is there to check things, which ever way the final decision goes
Neville Kneville
Well-Known Member
It is subjective as you need to interpret level of force, intent things like that that can never be written into law. Of course IFAB is going to interpret everything but an obvious error as the correct decision. PGMOL did the same when they assessed that they made no more than 4 or 5 bad decisions a game. Common sense tells you otherwise.
If there is three correct VAR decisions and one incorrect a team has been disadvantaged. Possibly to the extent that the result of the game is changed.
I want the authorities to iron out fairly clear flaws in VAR and then introduce it. Once we bring in an inferior product it will be so much harder to change it. So get it right, iron out the inconsistencies and flaws and then phase it in.
And to me it's ludicrous to have access to the technology we have, and accept a system that even those heavily in favour accept gets wrong 1 time out of every 4. That will affect the result of dozens of games of the course of a season.
Why isn't there a clear instruction on shirt pulling in Law 12 ?
They could say shirt pulling is allowed, not allowed, partially allowed but they don't.
So the ref can give what the fuck he wants & now he can do it even moreso.
It's not an accident imo.
Neville Kneville
Well-Known Member
I don't disagree with large parts of this. However, there not VAR issues, but rather issues with Refs understanding the laws properly.
The laws don't tell them.
That's why I don't trust the system. This gives them more power to interfere and apply their own rules.
The laws don't tell them.
That's why I don't trust the system. This gives them more power to interfere and apply their own rules.
They've been doing so in the old system for as long as I remember....
Neville Kneville
Well-Known Member
They've been doing so in the old system for as long as I remember....
Of course.
But now, someone is watching on tv & can legitimately choose whether or not the ref should be told to get involved. That's one opportunity for dodgyness.
Then, having been told, the ref can apply his own rules of interpretation. That's opportunity no 2.
Thirdly, the ref can, do as he does now, & call it himself. Opportunity no 3.
Unless v.a.r. conclusively proves him wrong (which on 'holding' incidents etc will rarely happen) he can give a random best guess decision & stick to it, so that's actually a 4th opportunity for dodgyness & if he's too obviously bent, he can rescind the decision with v.a.r. & appear an honest hero, then get you later.
It is subjective as you need to interpret level of force, intent things like that that can never be written into law. Of course IFAB is going to interpret everything but an obvious error as the correct decision. PGMOL did the same when they assessed that they made no more than 4 or 5 bad decisions a game. Common sense tells you otherwise.
Ok, name specifically what ones they got wrong out of those the IFAB said were correct.
If there is three correct VAR decisions and one incorrect a team has been disadvantaged. Possibly to the extent that the result of the game is changed.
well if it misses one, it won't make the outcome any worse than original decision given by the ref. But. I could understand frustrations if var didn't pick something up. Referals system resolves this, I'm all for that..
I want the authorities to iron out fairly clear flaws in VAR and then introduce it. Once we bring in an inferior product it will be so much harder to change it. So get it right, iron out the inconsistencies and flaws and then phase it in.
The authorities haven't ironed out the flaws in the old system, so don't expect it ever to be perfect. That's unrealistic. However, it's fair to expect the 75% improvement should increase as the system matures and people get used to it. It's already better than it was in the first week of the tournament. The mic'ing of the refs/var team and referals should iron out the main issues significantly.
And to me it's ludicrous to have access to the technology we have, and accept a system that even those heavily in favour accept gets wrong 1 time out of every 4. That will affect the result of dozens of games of the course of a season.
It's got to start somewhere. No ones accepting it, Collinas press conference should tell you that. He's specifically responsible to drive continuous improvement with VAR.
BlueHammer85
Well-Known Member
- Joined
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People think that was a penalty? 50/50 at best. Never a foul. Var has been brilliant for the most part. I love it
Laughable isn’t it. The best those against VAR can do is scream ‘SEE THAT WAS A PEN’ when in fact both players grabbling with each other - they also conviently forgot how many decisions have been decided correctly thanks to giving the ref a chance to review, first major trial and it’s been a major success. Early days but signs are looking good.
Neville Kneville
Well-Known Member
It's got to start somewhere. No ones accepting it, Collinas press conference should tell you that. He's specifically responsible to drive continuous improvement with VAR.
Well we already know for sure what the answer is: scrap this system & start a referral system.
Make the rules in black & white.
So let's develop a workable solution and start from there.It's got to start somewhere. No ones accepting it, Collinas press conference should tell you that. He's specifically responsible to drive continuous improvement with VAR.
Neville Kneville
Well-Known Member
Laughable isn’t it. The best those against VAR can do is scream ‘SEE THAT WAS A PEN’ when in fact both players grabbling with each other - they also conviently forgot how many decisions have been decided correctly thanks to giving the ref a chance to review, first major trial and it’s been a major success. Early days but signs are looking good.
You'll be crying like fuck if England go out the same way.
The person initiating the foul is the offender. They already have precedent for that on penalty incidents starting inside/outside the box (it doesn't suddenly change if the player being fouled pushes back) but yet again, they have dodged their own laws because of v.a.r. and nobody gives a fuck
Of course.
But now, someone is watching on tv & can legitimately choose whether or not the ref should be told to get involved. That's one opportunity for dodgyness.
Then, having been told, the ref can apply his own rules of interpretation. That's opportunity no 2.
Thirdly, the ref can, do as he does now, & call it himself. Opportunity no 3.
Unless v.a.r. conclusively proves him wrong (which on 'holding' incidents etc will rarely happen) he can give a random best guess decision & stick to it, so that's actually a 4th opportunity for dodgyness & if he's too obviously bent, he can rescind the decision with v.a.r. & appear an honest hero, then get you later.
Your arguing for arguings sake now. When it's been used it's almost flawless. It's when it's not been utilised, when it should have been, where the issue lies....
So let's develop a workable solution and start from there.
What do you think is going on now?
Rather like the penalties we get now when 4-0 up against Watford, but never when it's 1-1 against the dippers. Mike Riley is going to love it.Of course.
But now, someone is watching on tv & can legitimately choose whether or not the ref should be told to get involved. That's one opportunity for dodgyness.
Then, having been told, the ref can apply his own rules of interpretation. That's opportunity no 2.
Thirdly, the ref can, do as he does now, & call it himself. Opportunity no 3.
Unless v.a.r. conclusively proves him wrong (which on 'holding' incidents etc will rarely happen) he can give a random best guess decision & stick to it, so that's actually a 4th opportunity for dodgyness & if he's too obviously bent, he can rescind the decision with v.a.r. & appear an honest hero, then get you later.
Neville Kneville
Well-Known Member
Your arguing for arguings sake now. When it's been used it's almost flawless. It's when it's not been utilised, when it should have been, where the issue lies....
No, it's been inconsistent when used but as the laws are not set in stone, the ref gets to choose what constitutes a foul and thus is always right .
Neville Kneville
Well-Known Member
Rather like the penalties we get now when 4-0 up against Watford, but never when it's 1-1 against the dippers. Mike Riley is going to love it.
Perfect example.
Statistically, we will probably end up the biggest winners of v.a.r.
With 25, 5th goal v.a. r. decisions. But get knocked out of both cups & the Champs Lg on v.a.r.