Bert Trautmann was a member of the Hitler Youth, persuaded into it like thousands of other young Germans, and as a talented athlete he especially had reason to join. Then he was a soldier but not an SS man. He committed no war crimes and in later life he always said that he never knew what it was to live in a free country till he came to England, unlike under the government that had tried to brainwash him with propaganda. By comparison Ched Evans didn't grow up in a society that tried to teach him evil, he made his own mind up to commit his crime, so no, the comparison isn't valid.
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Would You Accept A Rapist Playing For City?
- Thread starter Blue Hefner
- Start date
nice neil
Well-Known Member
I think this comment is worthy of its own thread. But I couldn't find the "rape is ok, really" forum.squirtyflower said:I just wonder if all those saying 'no' would also say no to an ex-prisoner of war with five medals for fighting against your forces?
Nice one. That's the point the Ched Evans apologists have been missing.nice neil said:I think this comment is worthy of its own thread. But I couldn't find the "rape is ok, really" forum.squirtyflower said:I just wonder if all those saying 'no' would also say no to an ex-prisoner of war with five medals for fighting against your forces?
kaz7
Well-Known Member
nice neil said:Ahhh! Different story now, isn't it ? Sexist pig ! ;-)karen7 said:
What are you on about?
I'm sexist because i don't want a rapist in our team?
D
D
dronefromsector7g
Guest
You should be ashamed of yourself, what a disgusting comparison.squirtyflower said:I just wonder if all those saying 'no' would also say no to an ex-prisoner of war with five medals for fighting against your forces?
Shaelumstash
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Ali Benarbia said:Bert Trautmann was a member of the Hitler Youth, persuaded into it like thousands of other young Germans, and as a talented athlete he especially had reason to join. Then he was a soldier but not an SS man. He committed no war crimes and in later life he always said that he never knew what it was to live in a free country till he came to England, unlike under the government that had tried to brainwash him with propaganda. By comparison Ched Evans didn't grow up in a society that tried to teach him evil, he made his own mind up to commit his crime, so no, the comparison isn't valid.
Good point. Also it's ridiculous to blame soldiers for the decisions their superiors / government take. The very nature of being in the forces is that you follow orders without questioning them.
There are many people that question the validity of Vietnam, or even Iraq. But you can't blame the soldiers who followed orders. Same with WWII, there are many who morally question Nagasaki and Hiroshima, but you can't blame the US soldiers for the policies of their government / military.
acton28 said:dobobobo said:squirtyflower said:I just wonder if all those saying 'no' would also say no to an ex-prisoner of war with five medals for fighting against your forces?
I'm presuming you mean the prisoner of war was captured and held in a military prison? And not he was kept in prison because of a crime he comitted?
I don't know anyone involved in the armed forces nor have I ever been involved in the armed forces. (So I may be wrong with the following.) But, as I undertsand it, armed forces/governments don't class the killing of another soldier as murder/criminal offence. When a soldier kills a soldier of the oppotion I've heard this often said: "It's not murder, it's war." In other words, so long as the soldier who killed followed the rules of engagement then he hasn't comitted a crime. If it is believed the soldier didn't follow the rules of engagment then military police (from the soldiers nation) get involved.
My point being, Bert Trautmann never committed a criminal offence whilst fighting for the Nazi's. So I have no problem with him having played for City. If he had comitted a war crime when fighting for the Nazi's, then the answer is no he should not of played for City. Thankfully this was not the case and I'm glad he served City.
He never fought for the Nazis, he fought for the Luftwaffe, and his country - like the vast majority of Luftwaffe and armed force troops, he was not a Nazi. Actual Nazi supporters were few and far between. When you're drafted, you're drafted (or a deserter and dead/imprisoned-at best).
Taking the morale high-ground over sexual abuse/rape/sex crimes is far easier than war, where, loyalty was reversed and war crimes not noted.
I don't know much about history, so I aint saying you are wrong, but as I understand it the Nazi's were in charge of Germany, so anyone who fought on that side in World War II (Italians, Japanese, etc.) were fighting for the Nazi's.
I didn't say Bert was a Nazi, but he did fight for the Nazi's. In my mind there is a difference. If things were reveresed and Great Britain decided to invade Poland then the Royal Air Force would of been on the bad side / Nazi side. So I don't see how the member of the Luftwaffe are exempt.
As for the bit in bold, I totally agree. That is why I do not hate German people (of the time and now), they were fighting for the Nazis and not fighting for Germany. If they were fighting for Germany then i'd have the same view as I do of England/British Empire/Commonwealth.
Getting back on topic...
Do all those in favour and not arsed people realise that if a rapist had stopped at the point of hearing the female/male say "No" they wouldn't have to serve time and face a life time of people (mainly employers) saying no to them? Why should football say yes?
Do all those in favour and not arsed people realise that if a rapist had stopped at the point of hearing the female/male say "No" they wouldn't have to serve time and face a life time of people (mainly employers) saying no to them? Why should football say yes?
Shaelumstash
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dobobobo said:acton28 said:dobobobo said:I'm presuming you mean the prisoner of war was captured and held in a military prison? And not he was kept in prison because of a crime he comitted?
I don't know anyone involved in the armed forces nor have I ever been involved in the armed forces. (So I may be wrong with the following.) But, as I undertsand it, armed forces/governments don't class the killing of another soldier as murder/criminal offence. When a soldier kills a soldier of the oppotion I've heard this often said: "It's not murder, it's war." In other words, so long as the soldier who killed followed the rules of engagement then he hasn't comitted a crime. If it is believed the soldier didn't follow the rules of engagment then military police (from the soldiers nation) get involved.
My point being, Bert Trautmann never committed a criminal offence whilst fighting for the Nazi's. So I have no problem with him having played for City. If he had comitted a war crime when fighting for the Nazi's, then the answer is no he should not of played for City. Thankfully this was not the case and I'm glad he served City.
He never fought for the Nazis, he fought for the Luftwaffe, and his country - like the vast majority of Luftwaffe and armed force troops, he was not a Nazi. Actual Nazi supporters were few and far between. When you're drafted, you're drafted (or a deserter and dead/imprisoned-at best).
Taking the morale high-ground over sexual abuse/rape/sex crimes is far easier than war, where, loyalty was reversed and war crimes not noted.
I don't know much about history, so I aint saying you are wrong, but as I understand it the Nazi's were in charge of Germany, so anyone who fought on that side in World War II (Italians, Japanese, etc.) were fighting for the Nazi's.
I didn't say Bert was a Nazi, but he did fight for the Nazi's. In my mind there is a difference. If things were reveresed and Great Britain decided to invade Poland then the Royal Air Force would of been on the bad side / Nazi side. So I don't see how the member of the Luftwaffe are exempt.
As for the bit in bold, I totally agree. That is why I do not hate German people (of the time and now), they were fighting for the Nazis and not fighting for Germany. If they were fighting for Germany then i'd have the same view as I do of England/British Empire/Commonwealth.
The world isn't divided up in to bad side and good side, unfortunately it's a lot more complicated than that.
Shaelumstash said:dobobobo said:acton28 said:He never fought for the Nazis, he fought for the Luftwaffe, and his country - like the vast majority of Luftwaffe and armed force troops, he was not a Nazi. Actual Nazi supporters were few and far between. When you're drafted, you're drafted (or a deserter and dead/imprisoned-at best).
Taking the morale high-ground over sexual abuse/rape/sex crimes is far easier than war, where, loyalty was reversed and war crimes not noted.
I don't know much about history, so I aint saying you are wrong, but as I understand it the Nazi's were in charge of Germany, so anyone who fought on that side in World War II (Italians, Japanese, etc.) were fighting for the Nazi's.
I didn't say Bert was a Nazi, but he did fight for the Nazi's. In my mind there is a difference. If things were reveresed and Great Britain decided to invade Poland then the Royal Air Force would of been on the bad side / Nazi side. So I don't see how the member of the Luftwaffe are exempt.
As for the bit in bold, I totally agree. That is why I do not hate German people (of the time and now), they were fighting for the Nazis and not fighting for Germany. If they were fighting for Germany then i'd have the same view as I do of England/British Empire/Commonwealth.
The world isn't divided up in to bad side and good side, unfortunately it's a lot more complicated than that.
Yep, I totally agree.
Bloody hell, this shouldn't be this difficult.
1. Trautmann served a government that had brainwashed him & millions of others; afterwards when he could think for himself he saw through its lies.
2. Even so he committed no crime, unless killing enemies in wartime in a kill or be killed situation is a crime.
3. Ched Evans freely chose to do wrong and rape a woman and he enjoyed it.
Bert also became an ambassador for peace and reconciliation between two nations. If Ched Evans turns into a campaigner for the rights of abused women I will reconsider my view of him. Right now he's still a cowardly lout while Bert will always be the definition of a good and brave human being.
1. Trautmann served a government that had brainwashed him & millions of others; afterwards when he could think for himself he saw through its lies.
2. Even so he committed no crime, unless killing enemies in wartime in a kill or be killed situation is a crime.
3. Ched Evans freely chose to do wrong and rape a woman and he enjoyed it.
Bert also became an ambassador for peace and reconciliation between two nations. If Ched Evans turns into a campaigner for the rights of abused women I will reconsider my view of him. Right now he's still a cowardly lout while Bert will always be the definition of a good and brave human being.
nice neil
Well-Known Member
I was joking. Check your post regarding a naked Vincent Kompany. Box of chocolates....I know you were joking too. My frivolous reply was just before I saw the effort from " squirts"karen7 said:nice neil said:Ahhh! Different story now, isn't it ? Sexist pig ! ;-)karen7 said:
What are you on about?
I'm sexist because i don't want a rapist in our team?
kaz7
Well-Known Member
nice neil said:I was joking. Check your post regarding a naked Vincent Kompany. Box of chocolates....I know you were joking too. My frivolous reply was just before I saw the effort from " squirts"karen7 said:nice neil said:Ahhh! Different story now, isn't it ? Sexist pig ! ;-)
What are you on about?
I'm sexist because i don't want a rapist in our team?
Ah i kind of get it now
I'm staying out of this one
Bewar3them00n
Well-Known Member
It's not the fans decision to make, there are plenty of what if's before and after the event and grey areas of legality, but isn't it a breach of contract to be involved in criminal activity? Giving the club the right to terminate contract and wash hands of player?
It really is a no brainer at City, we have a manager who is soft spoken, polite, and doesn't bad moth other managers ( Wenger, Rodgers take note) we have a captain who speaks 4 languages, a real community spirit and charitable ethos running thru the club, there's no way City would even entertain retaining such a player, no matter who he is, it's no coincidence that our squad doesn't court cotreversy, such players have been moved on.
So NO, from me, and there would be a NO from the club too
It really is a no brainer at City, we have a manager who is soft spoken, polite, and doesn't bad moth other managers ( Wenger, Rodgers take note) we have a captain who speaks 4 languages, a real community spirit and charitable ethos running thru the club, there's no way City would even entertain retaining such a player, no matter who he is, it's no coincidence that our squad doesn't court cotreversy, such players have been moved on.
So NO, from me, and there would be a NO from the club too
He's still trying to clear his name and ths process is being stepped up upon his release. Therefore, 60k could put their name to a petition against someone who ends up getting their conviction quashed.
CCRC Media Release
Ched Evans, professional footballer, continues his fight to clear his name after his 2012 conviction for rape with the submission of an application to the Criminal Cases Review Commission to send his case back to the Court of Appeal.
He has always maintained his absolute innocence and with the help of his partner Natasha and their families he has campaigned relentlessly for this conviction to be overturned.
It is still difficult to comprehend how he was convicted in a case where no individual ever accused him of rape and where a co-defendant who stood trial at the same time and who faced an almost identical prosecution case was acquitted.
Many thousands of people have offered support to Ched through this website and have also expressed their growing concerns about this conviction as more of the facts have become known.
Barrister David Emanuel of Garden Court Chambers, London, in conjunction with Shaun Draycott, senior partner with Draycott Browne Solicitors, has completed a thorough review of the evidence and all aspects of the way the case proceeded in the Crown Court. In addition further investigations have been conducted by Liberton Investigations, an independent investigations company, into a number of previously unexplored areas of the evidence.
As a result, an application was today submitted to the Criminal Cases Review Commission raising serious concerns about the safety of this conviction. The application submits that the case should be sent back to the Court of Appeal on the basis that there is a real possibility that the conviction would be quashed.
Ched has served almost two and a half years of a five year sentence for a crime which he has consistently denied and is due for release in October this year. He looks forward to returning to the family life he used to enjoy and to his career as a professional footballer. He will continue to fight to clear his name.
He would like to thank the thousands of people who have sent him messages of support.
Footnotes
David Emanuel is an experienced criminal barrister who has appeared in a number of high profile cases. He is regularly involved in challenging questionable convictions at the Court of Appeal.
Garden Court Chambers, London are one of the top human rights sets of barristers in the country. Their members have argued in the defence of the rights of accused and in furtherance of the rights of individuals against the state in landmark decisions over many years.
Shaun Draycott is a senior partner in Draycott Browne Solicitors who are one of the leading firms of solicitors in Manchester and the North West specialising in criminal defence.
The Criminal Cases Review Commission is the independent body, set up and funded by government, tasked with reviewing and investigating potential miscarriages of justice with the power to refer cases to the Court of Appeal.
Liberton Investigations are an independent investigations company who specialise in complex, high profile investigations for individuals, corporate clients, and charities. As trained ex-Police detectives they are experts in just about every investigative area including that of sexual offences.
CCRC Media Release
Ched Evans, professional footballer, continues his fight to clear his name after his 2012 conviction for rape with the submission of an application to the Criminal Cases Review Commission to send his case back to the Court of Appeal.
He has always maintained his absolute innocence and with the help of his partner Natasha and their families he has campaigned relentlessly for this conviction to be overturned.
It is still difficult to comprehend how he was convicted in a case where no individual ever accused him of rape and where a co-defendant who stood trial at the same time and who faced an almost identical prosecution case was acquitted.
Many thousands of people have offered support to Ched through this website and have also expressed their growing concerns about this conviction as more of the facts have become known.
Barrister David Emanuel of Garden Court Chambers, London, in conjunction with Shaun Draycott, senior partner with Draycott Browne Solicitors, has completed a thorough review of the evidence and all aspects of the way the case proceeded in the Crown Court. In addition further investigations have been conducted by Liberton Investigations, an independent investigations company, into a number of previously unexplored areas of the evidence.
As a result, an application was today submitted to the Criminal Cases Review Commission raising serious concerns about the safety of this conviction. The application submits that the case should be sent back to the Court of Appeal on the basis that there is a real possibility that the conviction would be quashed.
Ched has served almost two and a half years of a five year sentence for a crime which he has consistently denied and is due for release in October this year. He looks forward to returning to the family life he used to enjoy and to his career as a professional footballer. He will continue to fight to clear his name.
He would like to thank the thousands of people who have sent him messages of support.
Footnotes
David Emanuel is an experienced criminal barrister who has appeared in a number of high profile cases. He is regularly involved in challenging questionable convictions at the Court of Appeal.
Garden Court Chambers, London are one of the top human rights sets of barristers in the country. Their members have argued in the defence of the rights of accused and in furtherance of the rights of individuals against the state in landmark decisions over many years.
Shaun Draycott is a senior partner in Draycott Browne Solicitors who are one of the leading firms of solicitors in Manchester and the North West specialising in criminal defence.
The Criminal Cases Review Commission is the independent body, set up and funded by government, tasked with reviewing and investigating potential miscarriages of justice with the power to refer cases to the Court of Appeal.
Liberton Investigations are an independent investigations company who specialise in complex, high profile investigations for individuals, corporate clients, and charities. As trained ex-Police detectives they are experts in just about every investigative area including that of sexual offences.
u2fme2
Well-Known Member
absolutely not. as a a father of two daughters i would
be appalled if it happened at city, and would without
hesitation hand my two season tickets back to the club.
be appalled if it happened at city, and would without
hesitation hand my two season tickets back to the club.
Blue Is the Opposite of Blue
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MODERATOR.squirtyflower said:I just wonder if all those saying 'no' would also say no to an ex-prisoner of war with five medals for fighting against your forces?
Lancet Fluke
Well-Known Member
u2fme2 said:as a a father of two daughters
If you didn't have two daughters would you welcome a rapist with open arms?
nijinsky's fetlocks
Well-Known Member
I very much doubt Manchester City Football Club would consult me anyway.
Frankly, no - I wouldn't want a convicted rapist playing for my club, but then how far do you take any personal stand?
I wouldn't particularly want a racist or a wife beater either, but we've probably had both over the years, only we never knew.
Frankly, no - I wouldn't want a convicted rapist playing for my club, but then how far do you take any personal stand?
I wouldn't particularly want a racist or a wife beater either, but we've probably had both over the years, only we never knew.
Would i condone a convicted rapist playing for a club where players are seen as role models for kids? No.
Should someone who has been convicted, served their time, continue to seek work and continue their lives? Yes.
Someone who has been convicted, served their time, continue to seek work and continue their lives. Then commit the offence again because the justice system was too lenient the first time, Should they get a third chance at redemption? No.
Should convicted rapists have their willy's cut off as well as serving prison time? Yes.
Does the Justice system in this country make mistake or needs to be improved for more clarity? Yes.
Do I give a fuck about Ched Evans? No.
Do we have a rapist playing for City?
Should someone who has been convicted, served their time, continue to seek work and continue their lives? Yes.
Someone who has been convicted, served their time, continue to seek work and continue their lives. Then commit the offence again because the justice system was too lenient the first time, Should they get a third chance at redemption? No.
Should convicted rapists have their willy's cut off as well as serving prison time? Yes.
Does the Justice system in this country make mistake or needs to be improved for more clarity? Yes.
Do I give a fuck about Ched Evans? No.
Do we have a rapist playing for City?