I think Iheanacho needs to be brought in gradually this year, needs to be exposed at the right times and build on it. I truly believe he could make an impact starting from next season on a more regular basis and wouldn't be miffed if he featured more. You simply have to take a chance sometimes or you could lose a potential top class player. Even if it's for a measley 25 mins at the end when we're winning. We're at the top table now and I do appreciate, we may only get a couple sneaking in every so often but not to even give them a small chance is nonsense and the whole can't win with kids, they'll make mistakes doesn't wash with me as I'm not talking about starting 4 or 5 every week, 1 off the bench every week ( maybe barring big games ) or 1 starting every so often if they've shown enough.
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Youth or Success
- Thread starter BadApple
- Start date
Neville Kneville
Well-Known Member
Have you any idea how rediculous that is? I admire your passion, but that is just rediculous.
I'm afraid you will remain disappointed until we do unearth that gem, which todate, hasn't happened
How the fuck do you know that ? Kelechi has failed your guesswork test already has he ? Denayer won't make it ?
Have you any idea how ridiculous, & totally proven time & again to be wrong, is your assumption that coaches can look at a bunch of similarly talented 18 year old kids, & know which of them will succeed & which won't ? Imagine how much money you coul;d make, if you could just go round looking at 18 year olds around the world & KNOW which ones will make it ? Think about what you are saying. That person would be the highest earner in football. He'd be worth more money than Real Madrid, full stop. In fact he could demand 50 mil himself just on each deal. 'Give us a name of a star' 'Give me fifty million quid & I'll get him signed for you' . What you are suggesting is nonsense.
I keep giving you perfect examples absolutely proving you wrong on this & you keep pretending they don't exist. I pointed out Ferguson & you said you don't care. It's central to the whole discussion!
We had David Platt as our 2nd in command, when we won our first Prem, & our first FA Cup since the 60s. Our main rival was Ferguson. Platt let SWP go to City, from Forest. He didn't think SWP had 'it'. SWP was instantly the star of our youth set up. Platt was then given the job, of being the top man for England at U21 level. The TOP MAN. I'm telling you this as a fact which proves what I'm talking about. He had no fucking idea what he was looking at in front of his nose.
. That isn't because he's a fucking idiot, neither is Ferguson, who failed to get Pogba signed up. It's because he DIDN'T KNOW. That's the two top coaches from the top of the Premier League. They DIDN'T KNOW. It isn't science or computer games, it's football. One player can play like Messi at kids' level & fail completely, another can have a few flaws & quickly learn to iron them out at senior level, & suddenly you have a player. You honestly think that if Ferguson KNEW Pogba was going to be so good, he wouldn't have had him locked down at Utd ? Perhaps him & Platt are so stupid compared to all the other coaches & it's just those two, everybody else KNOWS ?
If Brandon Barker had come through at the same time as SWP, he would have looked as good or probably better, in our kids' teams as SWP. Both would stand out compared to the rest. Then he would have come through into our first team squad. THEN after being introduced into first team games, over a period of time, we would find out if Barker could learn to reproduce the same form at a higher level. THEN the coach would BEGIN to get a real idea if he had what it takes & make an INFORMED decision rather than the one we have just made with Rony Lopes, which is pure fucking guesswork & 50/50 right or wrong.
Some of the kids now, would make it at City if brought through in the next year imo. Some wouldn't. That's based on comparisons with past players who have made it.
Which of our best players would make it ? I have no fucking idea, & neither does Pellegrini.
Are they more likely to make it by being farmed out rather than brought through ? Nowhere near. Most will never come back & play in our first team & may then lose their intensity & fall away.
Then everyone is content they were 'right'. The kid never made it.
BadApple
Well-Known Member
How the fuck do you know that ? Kelechi has failed your guesswork test already has he ? Denayer won't make it ?
Have you any idea how ridiculous, & totally proven time & again to be wrong, is your assumption that coaches can look at a bunch of similarly talented 18 year old kids, & know which of them will succeed & which won't ? Imagine how much money you coul;d make, if you could just go round looking at 18 year olds around the world & KNOW which ones will make it ? Think about what you are saying. That person would be the highest earner in football. He'd be worth more money than Real Madrid, full stop. In fact he could demand 50 mil himself just on each deal. 'Give us a name of a star' 'Give me fifty million quid & I'll get him signed for you' . What you are suggesting is nonsense.
I keep giving you perfect examples absolutely proving you wrong on this & you keep pretending they don't exist. I pointed out Ferguson & you said you don't care. It's central to the whole discussion!
We had David Platt as our 2nd in command, when we won our first Prem, & our first FA Cup since the 60s. Our main rival was Ferguson. Platt let SWP go to City, from Forest. He didn't think SWP had 'it'. SWP was instantly the star of our youth set up. Platt was then given the job, of being the top man for England at U21 level. The TOP MAN. I'm telling you this as a fact which proves what I'm talking about. He had no fucking idea what he was looking at in front of his nose.
. That isn't because he's a fucking idiot, neither is Ferguson, who failed to get Pogba signed up. It's because he DIDN'T KNOW. That's the two top coaches from the top of the Premier League. They DIDN'T KNOW. It isn't science or computer games, it's football. One player can play like Messi at kids' level & fail completely, another can have a few flaws & quickly learn to iron them out at senior level, & suddenly you have a player. You honestly think that if Ferguson KNEW Pogba was going to be so good, he wouldn't have had him locked down at Utd ? Perhaps him & Platt are so stupid compared to all the other coaches & it's just those two, everybody else KNOWS ?
If Brandon Barker had come through at the same time as SWP, he would have looked as good or probably better, in our kids' teams as SWP. Both would stand out compared to the rest. Then he would have come through into our first team squad. THEN after being introduced into first team games, over a period of time, we would find out if Barker could learn to reproduce the same form at a higher level. THEN the coach would BEGIN to get a real idea if he had what it takes & make an INFORMED decision rather than the one we have just made with Rony Lopes, which is pure fucking guesswork & 50/50 right or wrong.
Some of the kids now, would make it at City if brought through in the next year imo. Some wouldn't. That's based on comparisons with past players who have made it.
Which of our best players would make it ? I have no fucking idea, & neither does Pellegrini.
Are they more likely to make it by being farmed out rather than brought through ? Nowhere near. Most will never come back & play in our first team & may then lose their intensity & fall away.
Then everyone is content they were 'right'. The kid never made it.
Good post, however it seems Utd knew Pogba had raw talent Fergie knew this and even City & a host of clubs, but at the time he was not the player he is now, but wanted a huge contract Fergie and the club decided against and he left as he wanted a better contract & more playing time as I understand it anyway.
You cannot have a youth team player holding a club over a barrel! Well you can, but in my opinion this sets a bad precedent proceeding.
Neville Kneville
Well-Known Member
Good post, however it seems Utd knew Pogba had raw talent Fergie knew this and even City & a host of clubs, but at the time he was not the player he is now, but wanted a huge contract Fergie and the club decided against and he left as he wanted a better contract & more playing time as I understand it anyway.
You cannot have a youth team player holding a club over a barrel! Well you can, but in my opinion this sets a bad precedent proceeding.
That would be fine if they hadn't just committed 58 million quid to bringing through a 19 year old from France. I never believe any stories giving excuses for Utd fucking up.
And regarding City, we also failed to get him due to, I believe, Mancini not acting on Vieira's recomendation ?
Two top coaches disagreeing on the same player. Which happens all the time throughout football of course & just reinforces my argument that people don't 'know' at all, which players will make it.
BadApple
Well-Known Member
That would be fine if they hadn't just committed 58 million quid to bringing through a 19 year old from France. I never believe any stories giving excuses for Utd fucking up.
And regarding City, we also failed to get him due to, I believe, Mancini not acting on Vieira's recomendation ?
Two top coaches disagreeing on the same player. Which happens all the time throughout football of course & just reinforces my argument that people don't 'know' at all, which players will make it.
I don't think it reinforces your argument at all as your question mark to me means it aint factual so your next sentance talking about two coaches disagreeing on the same player seems odd to me, just saying. At the end of the day you have scouts that spot the talent hence why people like Messi ended up at Barca.
Like you say though nobody can look at a player and say they will make it spotting the talent is the easy bit, but talent alone will not be enough to succeed.
Cheadle_hulmeBlue
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 27 Oct 2012
- Messages
- 16,890
I'm just hoping barker or one of our other talented kids gets a real chance to get into this team this year. It would be a real waste if not
I don't think it reinforces your argument at all as your question mark to me means it aint factual so your next sentance talking about two coaches disagreeing on the same player seems odd to me, just saying. At the end of the day you have scouts that spot the talent hence why people like Messi ended up at Barca.
Like you say though nobody can look at a player and say they will make it spotting the talent is the easy bit, but talent alone will not be enough to succeed.
It's easy to look back now at video of Messi playing as a youth in Argentina or for Barca, or even in the Barca C and B teams, and say "it was clear from a young age he would be a mega-star." That's what you'll find on documentaries about him, but it's also hindsight and, frankly, bullshit. The same exact predictions have been made for other very impressive youth players that never justified it at senior level. Just at Barcelona, look to Bojan Krkić and Gerard Deulofeu. Both were touted as the next Messi while at Barca's academy and even in the B team, yet neither came anywhere near living up to that label. Meanwhile, Barcelona let Pique and Fabregas go as youths because they weren't seen as quite good enough. Yet both have proven to be two of the best players in the world at their positions.
Of course, we should keep attracting top young talent and maybe we will hit the lottery. But there are tons of very impressive kids that play like the "next" Messi, Ronaldo, Zidane, whoever, and only a small fraction will actually reach that potential.
Ethan23
Well-Known Member
I wonder where Sterling would be today if he was brought through OUR Academy at the exact same time he was brought through the Liverpool one!?
Good post, however it seems Utd knew Pogba had raw talent Fergie knew this and even City & a host of clubs, but at the time he was not the player he is now, but wanted a huge contract Fergie and the club decided against and he left as he wanted a better contract & more playing time as I understand it anyway.
You cannot have a youth team player holding a club over a barrel! Well you can, but in my opinion this sets a bad precedent proceeding.
All very sensible but can I make a polite request to cut out all those sycophant references to to GPC please
Neville Kneville
Well-Known Member
I don't think it reinforces your argument at all as your question mark to me means it aint factual so your next sentance talking about two coaches disagreeing on the same player seems odd to me, just saying. At the end of the day you have scouts that spot the talent hence why people like Messi ended up at Barca.
Like you say though nobody can look at a player and say they will make it spotting the talent is the easy bit, but talent alone will not be enough to succeed.
I think that was actually the case re Pogba but I was meaning that it's quite common in football to hear about coaches disagreeing on the merits of players, actually players in general, not just young players, & you hear literally every club's ex managers, players etc talk about players they thought would or wouldn't make it & how they turned out to be horribly, spectacularly wrong at times.
For some reason quite a few people on here have developed the idea that if we release a player we are automatically right & that all the coaches are certain to be in agreement about it.
I very much doubt they all agree on Lopes for a start.