Inclusivity in the Premier League

[Rory Bluelow]

There just aren't that many gay footballers, maybe one or two in the entire football league if that. Its a weird fantasy people have that their are some secret gay footballers living in denial in every dressing room.

Do we have a big inclusivity drive for more gay builders or tree surgeons or horse vetenarians? Why does it matter! I just don't see the relevance.

Justin Fashanu was a tragic tale but that was a problem with how a religious family with Afro-caribbean roots deals with homosexuality. His teammates were more supportive than his own brother was!

I have a lot of family members (as well as colleagues and friends) who are gay (seriously I’m sure there is a gay family gene in there somewhere), several have children some via surrogacy, some “old school”. No one in the family gives a shit, but one is really into Pride, gay cruises, hanging around with big guys with beards etc…all the others just get on with their lives and their sexuality is no more prominent than anyone else’s. Some of them are not entirely comfortable to say the least about all the rainbow gestures etc and just want to get on with their lives. I think that’s very healthy and normal - just because activists are loud and challenging - we should never assume every one thinks the same. One of the worst things about contemporary society is the immense pressure for everyone to hold identikit views on everything. Within obvious limits of mutual tolerance and decency, diverse views and difference of opinion can even be a good thing !
By the way, as others have observed, I don’t think hardly any are massively into sport as a participant or a spectator.

 

[edinburgh123]

Good to see some support. Can’t imagine what the comments will be like though!
View attachment 100223
View attachment 100224

Shame meanwhile we have to go to Saudi Arabia in two weeks (not the Prem I know but if only teams would say “fuck that” we aren’t going)

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

Have to say, I would disagree with the first of the "don't say" points. If you're playing for City, and you're taking care of business on the pitch, I don't give a toss what colour you are, what religion (if any) you follow or who you sleep with. What you do on the pitch is the bottom line for me. Nothing else.

It's a game of football. Ninety mins plus of kicking a bag of air about a pitch. I don't give a flying fuck about anything else.

 

[Kippax Street 1880]

I have a lot of family members (as well as colleagues and friends) who are gay (seriously I’m sure there is a gay family gene in there somewhere), several have children some via surrogacy, some “old school”. No one in the family gives a shit, but one is really into Pride, gay cruises, hanging around with big guys with beards etc…all the others just get on with their lives and their sexuality is no more prominent than anyone else’s. Some of them are not entirely comfortable to say the least about all the rainbow gestures etc and just want to get on with their lives. I think that’s very healthy and normal - just because activists are loud and challenging - we should never assume every one thinks the same. One of the worst things about contemporary society is the immense pressure for everyone to hold identikit views on everything. Within obvious limits of mutual tolerance and decency, diverse views and difference of opinion can even be a good thing !
By the way, as others have observed, I don’t think hardly any are massively into sport as a participant or a spectator.

My experience aswell, one of my favourite colleagues is an older Gay man, he can't stand all the rainbow stuff either. He said he spent all his life just wanting to be treated normally, just because I'm attracted to men doesn't also mean I'm into leather, bondage and dressing up as a drag queen. He's a human being not defined by his sexuality. If we all came in one day in rainbow aprons to show support for him I reckon he would call us all a bunch of silly cunts!

I'd argue the media stereotype of what a gay man should be, thats perpetuated by most of the media, ie; effeminate, slight, more suited to creative disciplines, mainly female friend circle, catty, bitchy etc etc does more to put Gay men off being a footballer than the reception they would get in the dressing room or the stands.

 

[kaz7]

It is not about their team mates , it is the abuse they will get from the stands , they might find family members trolled , those who say they dont care so long as they play well are totally missing the point

 

[Kippax Street 1880]

Shame meanwhile we have to go to Saudi Arabia in two weeks (not the Prem I know but if only teams would say “fuck that” we aren’t going)

Plenty of gay men in Arabic countries that live happily and peacefully, the custom is to live as 'good friends' in public. Change is gradual and accelerated by exposure to the modern world and these Sporting events help do that.

Its not that long ago we were castrating war heroes in this country for being homosexual. Who knows how attitudes will change over the next 20-30 years in that area of the world.

 

[SkyBlueFlux]

How many would that be? A handful?

That's the thing isn't it, there could be posts from the African continent or from Asia etc and those comments just get attributed to football in this country or football in general.

The naivety in believing that there will be a world where people wont discriminate is absurd, all I know is the massive majority of people in this country don't discriminate in general and it's about as good as it gets.

The world is full of cunts but constantly reminding people who aren't cunts to stop being cunts is counterproductive and just plain wrong.

It's a universe away from being a handful. If you go to that post on Instagram there are 39,000 comments and the vast majority of them are bashing gay people. I just went on there and saw "adam and eve not adam and steve", "the PL needs to accept Christ", "god only intended for a man to marry a woman" etc. etc. it's literally a relentless stream of those comments. It's even worse on Facebook. I can't even read the ones in Arabic but god knows what they say. I scrolled for a while and didn't see a single comment along the lines of "being gay doesn't matter" like the ones on this thread. Not one.

Sadly, I don't believe in a world where people won't discriminate and I never suggested I do. There's one thing we agree on, the world is full of cunts.

That said, I don't see the problem in reminding people that gay people face discrimination worldwide (this is not just about the UK) because it is a fact. The statement of that fact doesn't bother me. It seems to bother some people. I have to wonder why it bothers them so much.

 

[SWP's back]

That said, I don't see the problem in reminding people that gay people face discrimination worldwide (this is not just about the UK) because it is a fact. The statement of that fact doesn't bother me. It seems to bother some people. I have to wonder why it bothers them so much.

Especially when it’s “rammed down their throats” one match week a year when some players have the audacity to wear rainbow laces and the club tweets their support.

They so don’t give a fuck about it that much that they then have to post about how much they don’t give a fuck about it, repeatedly.

 

[billymumphrey]

I have no idea. And very little interest. But that wasn't the question. You are saying locker rooms are out of step with society?

For someone who asks genuinely whether footballers are homophobic, I find the fact that you have no idea and no interest surprising. Why bother asking then? But as someone else has already posted in the thread there is currently 1 openly gay male footballer in the top 4 leagues. Applying the statistical distribution of gay men there should be over 100. From this we can suggest two things

1) If, at face value, we accept that there is only one openly gay male footballer, maybe we should ask ourselves why that is? What is it about football as a pastime/profession that means that gay men don't see it as a viable pathway? Hint, it may not be as inclusive as we think it is, and maybe the locker room culture has some influence on that.

2) If, we accept that there are probably more gay male footballers (greater than one less than one hundred) which is probably more likely to be true, again we have to ask ourselves why they don't feel comfortable being open? Similarly it might be the culture of football as a whole that is contributing to this under representation.

Whilst a different football code, here's an example in real time of what some 'footballers' think and what type of locker room culture they might contribute to.

https://www.news.com.au/sport/nrl/tigers-star-adam-doueihi-deletes-post-as-club-issues-please-explain/news-story/e96e9c80a5ebd8bca9168ec1c2a74bb1

Even in my lifetime I remember Fowler vs Le Saux, and Stefan Postma, and the homophobic abuse they both copped and they weren't even gay, so I can only imagine how someone who is homosexual might feel.

My experience aswell, one of my favourite colleagues is an older Gay man, he can't stand all the rainbow stuff either. He said he spent all his life just wanting to be treated normally, just because I'm attracted to men doesn't also mean I'm into leather, bondage and dressing up as a drag queen. He's a human being not defined by his sexuality. If we all came in one day in rainbow aprons to show support for him I reckon he would call us all a bunch of silly cunts!

I'd argue the media stereotype of what a gay man should be, thats perpetuated by most of the media, ie; effeminate, slight, more suited to creative disciplines, mainly female friend circle, catty, bitchy etc etc does more to put Gay men off being a footballer than the reception they would get in the dressing room or the stands.

On the one hand you appear to be arguing that unfair stereotyping is putting off people from being footballers (without any evidence to back that up) and on the other you appear to be guilty of stereotyping yourself by drawing parallels between 'rainbow stuff' and leather, bondage etc.

And the thing is, is that whilst your 'favourite older gay colleague' is entitled to his opinion about the 'rainbow stuff' he is also indebted to those same activists throughout the decades fighting for change for him to live the life that he would like without fear of being labelled a criminal. Change doesn't occur in a vacuum.

And again, it is only in living memory that actual discrimination has been addressed, and likely still needs to be.

You think we’ve had 50 years of gay liberation? In the UK it’s barely four | Peter Tatchell

Britain is celebrating the anniversary of the 1967 act, but in fact anti-gay laws were enforced more aggressively by the state after it was passed

www.theguardian.com

 

[halfcenturyup]

For someone who asks genuinely whether footballers are homophobic, I find the fact that you have no idea and no interest surprising. Why bother asking then? But as someone else has already posted in the thread there is currently 1 openly gay male footballer in the top 4 leagues. Applying the statistical distribution of gay men there should be over 100. From this we can suggest two things

1) If, at face value, we accept that there is only one openly gay male footballer, maybe we should ask ourselves why that is? What is it about football as a pastime/profession that means that gay men don't see it as a viable pathway? Hint, it may not be as inclusive as we think it is, and maybe the locker room culture has some influence on that.

2) If, we accept that there are probably more gay male footballers (greater than one less than one hundred) which is probably more likely to be true, again we have to ask ourselves why they don't feel comfortable being open? Similarly it might be the culture of football as a whole that is contributing to this under representation.

Whilst a different football code, here's an example in real time of what some 'footballers' think and what type of locker room culture they might contribute to.

https://www.news.com.au/sport/nrl/tigers-star-adam-doueihi-deletes-post-as-club-issues-please-explain/news-story/e96e9c80a5ebd8bca9168ec1c2a74bb1

Even in my lifetime I remember Fowler vs Le Saux, and Stefan Postma, and the homophobic abuse they both copped and they weren't even gay, so I can only imagine how someone who is homosexual might feel.

Brilliant. If only I cared whether you find my question interesting or not, your barb may have hit home. For the record, I don't know how many "openly Catholic" footballers there are either, or "openly Jewish". I have no interest in that either. Make of that what you will.

Anyway. Basically, you are saying you don't know whether PL locker rooms are homophobic. You are just drawing inferences from statistical implications when there could be many other reasons for the disparity in numbers and from reports of different sports in different countries.

Once again, I would be surprised, with the personalities we have in the squad, if the environment at City was homophobic. I could be wrong, of course, and tbf I was surprised last year when Aaron Ramsdale said he would be calling out homophobia at Arsenal, so maybe there is an issue more generally between squad members. It had never really occurred to me that that would still be the case.

Clearly, I get the issue with a minority of fans at grounds and wider social media with fanbases from less liberal countries, but that wasn't the question.