Israel-Palestine Conflict

I shudder to think what the "solution" some on here would advocate. But the point he makes is that there can be no effective solution while either or both of Hamas and the Israeli far-right are both in power.
Yet you don't shudder at the 'solution' Israel is imposing on Gaza?

Behind a payroll so didn't read it but does he mention settlements and international borders? Just 2 of the issues that prevented any effective solution last time round, before Hamas and the Israeli far right were in power

How can there be a viable Palestinian state without serious concessions on the Israeli side? Concessions that Netanyahu's moderate predecessors were also unwilling to commit to.

Fwiw here is Daniel Levy (not that one) with his thoughts on what transpired back in the day and the current state of play regarding a 2 state solution.





 
Well, the latter can be solved by Israeli voters. I can see how Hamas might not be "in power" but that may only be by a strategy that creates another Hamas (who have gained influence in the West Bank because the PA hasn't been able to resist the far-right settlers). And so it goes.

"Naught for your comfort," wrote Trevor Huddleston. Yet within a few years, South Africa did have a solution. True, I've no idea of how that might pan out, especially if divestment from Israel (let alone sanctions) would inevitably be seen as antisemitic. But the Exodus was after a new Pharaoh arose who hadn't heard of Joseph, and a new generation has arisen who won't excuse present day war crimes because of the war crimes of 80 years ago.
The solution is, in principle, simple. Both sides show the other some respect, and respect their desire to live their lives in peace and security. How we actually get there is another matter completely.
 
It would appear that Iraqi Jews thought Mossad was involved in "persuading" them to leave Iraq.



I made a big long post to reply to these comments as I have read most of the book 'The Jewish Exodus from Iraq, 1948-1951' by Moshe Gat and a small amount of Avi Shlaim before so wanted to explain some thoughts based on them and the posts, but i closed my tab and it didnt save so have tried to redo it so could be some mistakes. Apologies for the long post.

Its an interesting history and would recommend reading about it to understand how Iraqi Jews experiences were quite positive compared to a lot of Jewish groups in the ME due to certain conditions that allowed them to thrive, up until a point in history where everything changed dramatically for the worse as it did for Jews across the region.

To try summarise the bombings, ignoring the controversy over if they committed the bombings or not, the first bombings those men were charged with dated 14th Jan 1951, almost a year after the March 1950 Denaturalisation Act began allowing Jews to sign up to emigrate and revoke citizenship. It is stated that before the first apparent Zionist bombing on Jan 14th that around 86-90k+ of the total ~110-120k iraqi jews in Iraq had already signed up to leave the country, the total population was likely even less as illegal emigration had already been underway prior to this. It would therefore seem excessive to begin bombings when almost the entire population was already in the process of leaving, but could still be possible as a means to ensure the remainder left or extend the Denaturalisation process which was due to end. There were two earlier bombings against Jewish businesses that took place in 1950 but those are not what the zionist jews were charged with, they are suspected to have been by Iraqi nationalists however nobody was charged I believe.

I think therefore suggestions Jews left due to zionist bombing is provable to be incorrect based on what information is available. They were already signing up in mass due to numerous escalating issues within the country primarily due to the rise of anti-semitism from the 1930s with the insertion of nazi propaganda, an outright hostile government / public sentiment that had built up during WW2 with the rise of nationalism, the tensions created from the Palestine/Israel situation in 1948 and finally the concerted efforts by zionist groups playing off these events to encourage emigration as this hostility grew ever worse; Some of the early turning points during this time being the 1941 Farhud pogrom following the defeat of the Nazi-aligned coup, driven by citizens believing Jews had helped the British and the more significant being in 1948 when the government and wider public enacted many anti-jewish policies, laws and boycotts as a reaction to Israel's formation, which significantly harmed Jewish life in Iraq as well as banning any Jews from leaving the country so not to strengthen Israel, they were trapped under these conditions of persecution that was growing worse all the time.

If it was provable zionists committed those earlier bombings I could see some argument they contributed to emigration through terror but I still believe that overall the conditions that had developed within Iraq and the wider region were going to ultimately culminate in them leaving no matter what. The fate of the ~10k Iraqi jews who did not leave would point to that being true, as they ultimately did leave after facing ever more persecution.

Regarding Vic's link, which I believe is an anecdotal comment by the author, I think that line of thinking was a common sentiment at the time by many Iraqi migrants, the bombings being committed by Zionists was widely believed to be true due to living within Iraq where that was what the justice system had concluded / reported. That they were "stampeded" out is likely a feeling they had as they basically were, both Zionists and the Iraqi government were rushing them out in the end and prior to that zionist propaganda efforts were growing to try encourage them to leave as they feared for their future as they seen persecution growing more extreme, Iraqi immigrants likely did feel pressured and rushed. Iraq threatened Israel that they needed to be removed quicker "or events might take place concerning Iraqi Jews" including the threat of concentration camps which is what brought about the airlift from Iran and Cyprus and in part worried Israel of potentially worse actions being taken against the now stateless and mostly assetless Jews awaiting emigration. As jews left the public in Baghdad would taunt and mock them, rocks and stones thrown and spat upon them, any remaining possessions or valuables taken, it was an incredibly dangerous time for the stateless Jews and a complete betrayal by the country and citizens they had lived in/beside for centuries, for reasons that never even involved them.

Iraqi jews did not originally want to leave Iraq and didnt agree with zionism although were sympathetic to the concept, just that they didnt feel the need for it to include them emigrating. They initially actively worked against it within Iraq even turning in zionists to authorities, they early on understood the path Zionism would lead them down and what it would mean for their future in their homeland, they were content living where they were despite worsening circumstances post 1930s and had less reason to uproot themselves like other Jewish groups. This was until the later 1940s where conditions became significantly worse with active hostility as discussed above.

They had built up a successful community over the centuries, particularly in Baghdad, many lived a high upper class standard of life with the jewish community being very successful economically, running most of Iraqs trade, almost the entire banking system and holding government departmental roles. Zionists admitted they knew they had a much harder task to convince the Iraqi Jews of leaving due to this and Iraqi jews likely could see their obvious efforts trying to convince them to emigrate against the prevailing opinion which likely created a negative stigma towards them. Only post 1948 did that begin to turn when the high standard of living was ripped away from them when they were banned from many of their primary roles in the country. They were likely resentful that their way of life was ruined through no fault of their own and how the nation that was their home turned against them after centuries living there. This is before you add in how arab-jews were often discriminated against upon arrival to Israel, which again likely contributed to resentment at their circumstances, which is also discussed by Avi Shlaim based on his own experiences.

So to try and conclude my rambling, I do not believe the bombings that zionists were charged with contributed much to Jews leaving Iraq, I think its clear they already were leaving and would have eventually basically all left due to the trajectory of relations in the country and still despite that many harboured some negative feelings towards the zionist movement due to a perception it ultimately caused their situation and the betrayal of their homeland which railroaded them into emigrating as the only path forward, this negative perception likely was not helped by later discrimination they faced once in Israel.
 
I made a big long post to reply to these comments as I have read most of the book 'The Jewish Exodus from Iraq, 1948-1951' by Moshe Gat and a small amount of Avi Shlaim before so wanted to explain some thoughts based on them and the posts, but i closed my tab and it didnt save so have tried to redo it so could be some mistakes. Apologies for the long post.

Its an interesting history and would recommend reading about it to understand how Iraqi Jews experiences were quite positive compared to a lot of Jewish groups in the ME due to certain conditions that allowed them to thrive, up until a point in history where everything changed dramatically for the worse as it did for Jews across the region.

To try summarise the bombings, ignoring the controversy over if they committed the bombings or not, the first bombings those men were charged with dated 14th Jan 1951, almost a year after the March 1950 Denaturalisation Act began allowing Jews to sign up to emigrate and revoke citizenship. It is stated that before the first apparent Zionist bombing on Jan 14th that around 86-90k+ of the total ~110-120k iraqi jews in Iraq had already signed up to leave the country, the total population was likely even less as illegal emigration had already been underway prior to this. It would therefore seem excessive to begin bombings when almost the entire population was already in the process of leaving, but could still be possible as a means to ensure the remainder left or extend the Denaturalisation process which was due to end. There were two earlier bombings against Jewish businesses that took place in 1950 but those are not what the zionist jews were charged with, they are suspected to have been by Iraqi nationalists however nobody was charged I believe.

I think therefore suggestions Jews left due to zionist bombing is provable to be incorrect based on what information is available. They were already signing up in mass due to numerous escalating issues within the country primarily due to the rise of anti-semitism from the 1930s with the insertion of nazi propaganda, an outright hostile government / public sentiment that had built up during WW2 with the rise of nationalism, the tensions created from the Palestine/Israel situation in 1948 and finally the concerted efforts by zionist groups playing off these events to encourage emigration as this hostility grew ever worse; Some of the early turning points during this time being the 1941 Farhud pogrom following the defeat of the Nazi-aligned coup, driven by citizens believing Jews had helped the British and the more significant being in 1948 when the government and wider public enacted many anti-jewish policies, laws and boycotts as a reaction to Israel's formation, which significantly harmed Jewish life in Iraq as well as banning any Jews from leaving the country so not to strengthen Israel, they were trapped under these conditions of persecution that was growing worse all the time.

If it was provable zionists committed those earlier bombings I could see some argument they contributed to emigration through terror but I still believe that overall the conditions that had developed within Iraq and the wider region were going to ultimately culminate in them leaving no matter what. The fate of the ~10k Iraqi jews who did not leave would point to that being true, as they ultimately did leave after facing ever more persecution.

Regarding Vic's link, which I believe is an anecdotal comment by the author, I think that line of thinking was a common sentiment at the time by many Iraqi migrants, the bombings being committed by Zionists was widely believed to be true due to living within Iraq where that was what the justice system had concluded / reported. That they were "stampeded" out is likely a feeling they had as they basically were, both Zionists and the Iraqi government were rushing them out in the end and prior to that zionist propaganda efforts were growing to try encourage them to leave as they feared for their future as they seen persecution growing more extreme, Iraqi immigrants likely did feel pressured and rushed. Iraq threatened Israel that they needed to be removed quicker "or events might take place concerning Iraqi Jews" including the threat of concentration camps which is what brought about the airlift from Iran and Cyprus and in part worried Israel of potentially worse actions being taken against the now stateless and mostly assetless Jews awaiting emigration. As jews left the public in Baghdad would taunt and mock them, rocks and stones thrown and spat upon them, any remaining possessions or valuables taken, it was an incredibly dangerous time for the stateless Jews and a complete betrayal by the country and citizens they had lived in/beside for centuries, for reasons that never even involved them.

Iraqi jews did not originally want to leave Iraq and didnt agree with zionism although were sympathetic to the concept, just that they didnt feel the need for it to include them emigrating. They initially actively worked against it within Iraq even turning in zionists to authorities, they early on understood the path Zionism would lead them down and what it would mean for their future in their homeland, they were content living where they were despite worsening circumstances post 1930s and had less reason to uproot themselves like other Jewish groups. This was until the later 1940s where conditions became significantly worse with active hostility as discussed above.

They had built up a successful community over the centuries, particularly in Baghdad, many lived a high upper class standard of life with the jewish community being very successful economically, running most of Iraqs trade, almost the entire banking system and holding government departmental roles. Zionists admitted they knew they had a much harder task to convince the Iraqi Jews of leaving due to this and Iraqi jews likely could see their obvious efforts trying to convince them to emigrate against the prevailing opinion which likely created a negative stigma towards them. Only post 1948 did that begin to turn when the high standard of living was ripped away from them when they were banned from many of their primary roles in the country. They were likely resentful that their way of life was ruined through no fault of their own and how the nation that was their home turned against them after centuries living there. This is before you add in how arab-jews were often discriminated against upon arrival to Israel, which again likely contributed to resentment at their circumstances, which is also discussed by Avi Shlaim based on his own experiences.

So to try and conclude my rambling, I do not believe the bombings that zionists were charged with contributed much to Jews leaving Iraq, I think its clear they already were leaving and would have eventually basically all left due to the trajectory of relations in the country and still despite that many harboured some negative feelings towards the zionist movement due to a perception it ultimately caused their situation and the betrayal of their homeland which railroaded them into emigrating as the only path forward, this negative perception likely was not helped by later discrimination they faced once in Israel.
In other words, the reasons that Iraqi Jews emigrated to Israel were nuanced and complex but increasing persecution was a major factor, and it’s simply not true that they were living there in peace and feeling secure until some dastardly Mossad agents turned up. It was a similar story right across the Middle East and North Africa with the persecution being even more extreme in many cases. Whilst encouragement by Zionist groups was undoubtedly a factor, it was not the biggest motivator for the mass exodus to Israel.
 
At least the Minister is honest in his views even though he’s nicked the river to the sea nursery rhyme.

It’s been tedious reading people’s claims that they want a two state solution when they favour ethnic cleansing.
It’s looking more and more like that, which is ironic.

Takes me back to the old films, realising that they weren’t quite what they stated.
 

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