Martin McGuinness Dies

[M18CTID]

As much as I'm loathe to say it, he and his mate Adams were an essential part of the peace process so in that sense I can understand some of the plaudits he's received today. He also formed the most unlikeliest of friendships with Ian Paisley.

However, I feel that comparisons with Mandela are way wide of the mark. While it could be legitimately argued that Mandela himself was a terrorist in his younger years, to my knowledge he didn't pick on soft targets like McGuinness and the IRA did.

For me, John Hume gets far more credit for the role he played in the peace process. I'd put him ahead of all three of McGuinness, Adams, and Trimble.

 

[bluemoonmatt]

Lazy fucker

Under what circumstances would YOU murder or plot to murder an innocent human being. its a pretty straightforward question.

"If you and a significant proportion of you're community felt repressed and victimised do you accept your position as a 2nd class citizen or do you oppose it by whatever means necessary, at what point do you draw a line and fight for your beliefs at what point in guerilla warfare do you draw a line around legitimate targets. I strongly reiterate I neither excuse nor condone what happened in the troubles but it needs saying ON BOTH SIDES. This thread is about mcguinnes but if one is allowed to argue properly he/she needs the wider context to do so."

Look I think we're not likely to agree I don't even have a desire to get you to, my point throughout this has been that the Ira murdered innocent people, so indeed however did the British in a ridiculously higher number, whilst this is an ungainly competition I would suggest research into British intervention in Ireland and the lack of, indeed complete opposite during the great famine before we demonise a man and many others whose beliefs were forged as a result of the actions of our nation, yet despite those actions laid down the guns and bombs and sat down at a table.

 

[bluemoonmatt]

As much as I'm loathe to say it, he and his mate Adams were an essential part of the peace process so in that sense I can understand some of the plaudits he's received today. He also formed the most unlikeliest of friendships with Ian Paisley.

However, I feel that comparisons with Mandela are way wide of the mark. While it could be legitimately argued that Mandela himself was a terrorist in his younger years, to my knowledge he didn't pick on soft targets like McGuinness and the IRA did.

For me, John Hume gets far more credit for the role he played in the peace process. I'd put him ahead of all three of McGuinness, Adams, and Trimble.

Very good post Hume was integral to the process as was mo Mowlem (god bless her good soul) however unpalatable as it is blair mcguinness Adams and paisley were too

 

[Sid C]

I'm just sad that the fucking animal died in a hospital bed. Unlike many of his victims who were mercilessly butchered and never heard of again.

If I wasn't so angry I'd laugh at him dying of a heart decease. What fucking heart. If he did have one let's hope he's donated to Adams or some other cowardly shit.

 

[hilts]

"If you and a significant proportion of you're community felt repressed and victimised do you accept your position as a 2nd class citizen or do you oppose it by whatever means necessary, at what point do you draw a line and fight for your beliefs at what point in guerilla warfare do you draw a line around legitimate targets. I strongly reiterate I neither excuse nor condone what happened in the troubles but it needs saying ON BOTH SIDES. This thread is about mcguinnes but if one is allowed to argue properly he/she needs the wider context to do so."

Look I think we're not likely to agree I don't even have a desire to get you to, my point throughout this has been that the Ira murdered innocent people, so indeed however did the British in a ridiculously higher number, whilst this is an ungainly competition I would suggest research into British intervention in Ireland and the lack of, indeed complete opposite during the great famine before we demonise a man and many others whose beliefs were forged as a result of the actions of our nation, yet despite those actions laid down the guns and bombs and sat down at a table.

It's not about agreeing I asked a question which you haven't answered for a second time which is quite telling

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

There can be no excuse for the campaign of terror against civilians that the IRA, under the command and guidance of people like Adams & McGuinness, carried out. It was cowardly in the extreme but it takes a certain amount of courage to step aside from that path and work within a democratic framework to achieve a political solution. Many world leaders, past and present, saw themselves as freedom fighters while others saw them as terrorists. But eventually they set aside the bullet for the ballot box & became respected politicians. These included Mandela, Kenyatta, Makarios, Begin, Arafat and a number of others.

Of course it take two to tango and Sinn Fein weren't the only ones who needed to move away from extreme positions in order to ensure the success of the peace process in Northern Ireland. It may be they moved because they were militarily weakened and it was a pragmatic move. But had they not done so the bodies would still be mounting up so while it's right not to go overboard, his courage in embracing the peace process should also be acknowledged.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

There can be no excuse for the campaign of terror against civilians that the IRA, under the command and guidance of people like Adams & McGuinness, carried out. It was cowardly in the extreme but it takes a certain amount of courage to step aside from that path and work within a democratic framework to achieve a political solution. Many world leaders, past and present, saw themselves as freedom fighters while others saw them as terrorists. But eventually they set aside the bullet for the ballot box & became respected politicians. These included Mandela, Kenyatta, Makarios, Begin, Arafat and a number of others.

Of course it take two to tango and Sinn Fein weren't the only ones who needed to move away from extreme positions in order to ensure the success of the peace process in Northern Ireland. It may be they moved because they were militarily weakened and it was a pragmatic move. But had they not done so the bodies would still be mounting up so while it's right not to go overboard, his courage in embracing the peace process should also be acknowledged.

Well said, PB.

 

[i kne albert davy]

There can be no excuse for the campaign of terror against civilians that the IRA, under the command and guidance of people like Adams & McGuinness, carried out. It was cowardly in the extreme but it takes a certain amount of courage to step aside from that path and work within a democratic framework to achieve a political solution. Many world leaders, past and present, saw themselves as freedom fighters while others saw them as terrorists. But eventually they set aside the bullet for the ballot box & became respected politicians. These included Mandela, Kenyatta, Makarios, Begin, Arafat and a number of others.

Of course it take two to tango and Sinn Fein weren't the only ones who needed to move away from extreme positions in order to ensure the success of the peace process in Northern Ireland. It may be they moved because they were militarily weakened and it was a pragmatic move. But had they not done so the bodies would still be mounting up so while it's right not to go overboard, his courage in embracing the peace process should also be acknowledged.

Top post and probably not far off the mark, personally I still wouldn't have been able to shake hands with the twat though.

 

[Biffo123]

It's understandable that many will never forgive his role in the troubles, especially those who suffered directly from his actions. His role in securing peace in Northern Ireland shouldn't be ignored either though. A hugely controversial and divisive figure, so there's little chance this thread will end well.

Hi Ric , not a regular poster , but a regular reviewer , also an ex squaddie and by chance a practicing catholic ( not a bible basher by any way just my religion ) and I cant believe the coverage this guy is getting . I don't proclaim to know all the facts surrounding his life , his family affairs , his role in later life etc , but there is one thing that I do know as documented fact , this guy was not just a political figurehead , but was a very active member of the IRA , and was personally involved in a number of " contacts " with the British Army ( Am being careful what I say , but simply type a few questions into google to see what I mean )

I could go on but suffice to say I will not be mourning nor celebrating his death , but will raise a glass of port to fallen friends , that is all that matters !!

 

[che_don_john]

I've always seen Northern Ireland as being our Palestine, in that most people tend to view the whole thing in a polarised, binary way. That's to say that whenever someone lauds or commends a key figure on one side, those from the other side will be outraged.

I think the other obvious parallel is the religious aspect. Here in 20th century U.K. we had a division and conflict based on two different interpretations of the same make-believe god. Yes, there was a political aspect to it all, but none of that would have even come into play (at least in terms of internal conflict) had the whole of Northern Ireland shared the same religion or, better still, had no religion at all. It's shameful and embarrassing that a so-called modern democracy should suffer a petty religious conflict like this.

I guess by not having a dog in this fight I've been able to take an impartial view of it all. On the one hand I know that McGuinness played a big part in the peace process and that holding past indiscretions and crimes against such people inevitably hinders progress; but on the other hand I can only imagine how sick the families of his victims must be feeling at all the eulogies. My personal view was that as much of a shit as he was in the early years, he did seem to become a more open and progressive political figurehead. That's more than I can say for Ian Paisley, who was mad zealot and a distasteful individual to the very end.

I have good hopes for Nothern Ireland. I think that the younger generation who grew up during the peace process will soon come to the political fore, carrying less religious conviction and a greater desire to be part of an inclusive and diverse global community, let alone a provincial one.