The Tottenham Thread 13/14 part 3.

[Castiel]

United with Ferguson = two 89 point finishes back to back.
United with Moyes = probably 20 points worse.

Shows how important a top quality manager is imo.

Mourinho takes Chelsea to 2nd with 83 points in 2006/7.
Grant takes Chelsea to 2nd with 85 points in 2007/8.[/quote]
Mourinho won a cup double in that season, despite an injury crisis which saw Essien in CB.

 

[supercrystal7]

United with Ferguson = two 89 point finishes back to back.
United with Moyes = probably 20 points worse.

Shows how important a top quality manager is imo.

Mourinho takes Chelsea to 2nd with 83 points in 2006/7.
Grant takes Chelsea to 2nd with 85 points in 2007/8.

Mourinho won a cup double in that season, despite an injury crisis which saw Essien in CB.

Grant took the team to the CL final, which they were a Terry slip away from winning in the 07/08 season as well.

 

[Bilboblue]

Just watched the United v Spurs game again on BT Sports. Harry Kane had an interesting 10 minutes. The ball was going to him in a clearly offside position, and rather than let it run to De Gea for a punt out of his hands, he booted it into the stands, thus conceding the offside, but also wasting precious seconds.

But towards the end of his 10 minute cameo he looked absolutely dead on his feet. He looked as though he had just finished a 120 minute stint. He is either the slowest midfielder in England, or seriously lacking fitness.

Isn't Harry Kane a striker?

 

[Manc in London]

Just watched the United v Spurs game again on BT Sports. Harry Kane had an interesting 10 minutes. The ball was going to him in a clearly offside position, and rather than let it run to De Gea for a punt out of his hands, he booted it into the stands, thus conceding the offside, but also wasting precious seconds.

But towards the end of his 10 minute cameo he looked absolutely dead on his feet. He looked as though he had just finished a 120 minute stint. He is either the slowest midfielder in England, or seriously lacking fitness.

Isn't Harry Kane a striker?

He is a striker. Physically, he reminds of James Beattie. My missus just received a text telling her that MUTV is showing the Spurs game 'free to air', so we are now watching it. Paddy Crerand appears to be a tad demoralised. :)

I remember when Mario smashed the ball into our end in the closing minutes of the FA Cup semi against United. The fans around me groaned. It was the best thing he could have done. It took an age for the ball to be returned and there is no way that time was added on.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

both far too simplistic a view.

 

[GHoddle]

Why do people still believe stuff like that? It just comes down to money. I remember before the CL everyone saying Redknapp would be found out and he took them the 1/4 finals. They beat the current champions and the also the team that would win that years Serie A on route. When they finished 4th that season, people said they'd never do it again after we spent £100 million on the likes of Silva and pay them huge wages. But 2 years later they finished 4th ahead of Chelsea. Their wage bill was nowhere near any of the other teams that finished in the top 4. If they could pay more and attract better players they'd have done even better. The "proper" football managers you speak about are the charlatans, yet they football world don't seem to get it yet. Take a bit of money away from these "proper" managers and see what happens (ie Benitez in 2009/10). I'd give anything to see Pep taking over at Villa. They'd probably get relegated and still no one would click.

You really think Bobby would have finished 3rd and over taken Spurs had he not been given an absolute fortune to spend? You think AVB and Ramos forgot how to coach as soon as they turned up at Spurs? Were you one of those surprised by how rubbish England were under Cappello? No manager is taking Spurs higher than 4th/maybe 3rd at a push, unless they get a massive boost in finances. Levy and football fans everywhere need to understand these things and stop believing in and hyping the idea of super coaches and managers.

United with Ferguson = two 89 point finishes back to back.
United with Moyes = probably 20 points worse.

Shows how important a top quality manager is imo.

Mourinho takes Chelsea to 2nd with 83 points in 2006/7.
Grant takes Chelsea to 2nd with 85 points in 2007/8.

That Chelsea squad was much better than the current United one. They also had a set of players that were very strong mentally. Plus Mourinho wasn't at Chelsea for 27 years before he was sacked.

Inter did drop off quite a bit in the seasons following Mourinho's departure.

 

[aguero93:20]

United with Ferguson = two 89 point finishes back to back.
United with Moyes = probably 20 points worse.

Shows how important a top quality manager is imo.

Mourinho takes Chelsea to 2nd with 83 points in 2006/7.
Grant takes Chelsea to 2nd with 85 points in 2007/8.

That Chelsea squad was much better than the current United one. They also had a set of players that were very strong mentally. Plus Mourinho wasn't at Chelsea for 27 years before he was sacked.

Inter did drop off quite a bit in the seasons following Mourinho's departure.

He was getting a massive level of intensity out of an ageing squad the next few years were always going to be disastrous... sounds familiar actually...<br /><br />-- Fri Jan 03, 2014 10:21 am --<br /><br />

United with Ferguson = two 89 point finishes back to back.
United with Moyes = probably 20 points worse.

Shows how important a top quality manager is imo.

Mourinho takes Chelsea to 2nd with 83 points in 2006/7.
Grant takes Chelsea to 2nd with 85 points in 2007/8.

That Chelsea squad was much better than the current United one. They also had a set of players that were very strong mentally. Plus Mourinho wasn't at Chelsea for 27 years before he was sacked.

Inter did drop off quite a bit in the seasons following Mourinho's departure.

He was getting a massive level of intensity out of an ageing squad the next few years were always going to be disastrous... sounds familiar actually...

 

[adrianr]

You can't use the new manager bounce to prove AVB was holding these players back, or that he was a crap manager. He may have done/been both, but 4 odd games under Sherwood isn't conclusive either way.

That aside, this Sherwood honeymoon is going to go exactly the same way as 'Arry. If you give good players confidence to go out and play well, they will, and you'll beat a lot of the league in doing so through virtue of nothing more than having more talent. Problem is when you come up against a team who has good players, with confidence, playing well, but is tactically drilled and incredibly disciplined. Until they get someone in who can achieve both they'll continue falling short.

Reading the paper this morning I was questioning why I bother at all. You never read anything new. This morning Dawson IIRC is praising 'the gaffer', giving them confidence to go out and play their game, working harder in training (most intense training ever done don'chano?), two strikers is best, etc etc. All complete bullshit but trotted out when a new manager comes in time and time and time again. If the players idea of a good manager is one who lets them go out and do whatever the hell they like, they'll always be scraping for 4th and winning fuck all.

Levy needs to get a proper football manager in. Stop pissing around with charlatans and cockney wide boys.

Why do people still believe stuff like that? It just comes down to money. I remember before the CL everyone saying Redknapp would be found out and he took them the 1/4 finals. They beat the current champions and the also the team that would win that years Serie A on route. When they finished 4th that season, people said they'd never do it again after we spent £100 million on the likes of Silva and pay them huge wages. But 2 years later they finished 4th ahead of Chelsea. Their wage bill was nowhere near any of the other teams that finished in the top 4. If they could pay more and attract better players they'd have done even better. The "proper" football managers you speak about are the charlatans, yet they football world don't seem to get it yet. Take a bit of money away from these "proper" managers and see what happens (ie Benitez in 2009/10). I'd give anything to see Pep taking over at Villa. They'd probably get relegated and still no one would click.

You really think Bobby would have finished 3rd and over taken Spurs had he not been given an absolute fortune to spend? You think AVB and Ramos forgot how to coach as soon as they turned up at Spurs? Were you one of those surprised by how rubbish England were under Cappello? No manager is taking Spurs higher than 4th/maybe 3rd at a push, unless they get a massive boost in finances. Levy and football fans everywhere need to understand these things and stop believing in and hyping the idea of super coaches and managers.

I think you may have misinterpreted the point of my post slightly, although I still disagree with some of your later points. Nevertheless, to simplify my original point, the exact same team x 3, one lead by Mourinho, one Harry Redknapp, one AVB. I'd say in those three managers you have a strong 'man manager' (Though I'm really not fond of the term), a strong technical tactician, and a combination of the two (Harry, AVB and Mourinho respectively). Face them all off in a mini-league over 38 games, I'd back Mourinho to come out on top. And margins at the top are tight, very tight. That could be the difference between 2nd and third, a trophy or not.

Supercrystal mentions about how you can't make a good omelette with bad eggs, but that you can make a bad omelette with good eggs, and that is exactly it. Spurs have a lot of good players, they've had good players for many seasons now. Players who have ended up at Real Madrid, one of whom is now the most expensive player in the world, a regular in the Brazil side, etc. Harry got them to the quarter finals of the CL, a great achievement (though one I'd say they would never have repeated a second season if they'd got back into it, being an unknown quantity can be a huge advantage), but what else? No domestic trophy, I'd have backed even Benitez to pick up one of those with that squad. Maybe no manager could get them past 3rd but again you're missing my point - At the moment 3rd isn't even on the agenda. They keep nearly getting there and fucking it up. They don't seem to have built on anything they've created. Borrusia Dortmund have a lower average wage than Spurs - Are you telling me that Klopp has nothing to do with how excellent they have been the past few seasons? Sure the vultures have stunted them now, repeated pillaging from Bayern and Real Madrid as is custom, but before that occurred they were an exceptional side.

Even if the new manager isn't technically any more capable than the last, if the squad believes he is, and buys into his ideas, that can be enough to tip them from also-rans to winners. Cambiasso said as much about Mancini, he taught them to be winners. You can't just disregard something like that. He taught us to be winners too. If you truly believe anyone could have taken over our squad and won the FA Cup, beating your closest rivals en route, and get 3rd ahead of Arsenal, then you only have to look at what a car crash Tottenham have been introducing so many new players. Of course our higher spend and higher average wage tells out eventually, but you still need a strong man to put it all together in the first place. Does anyone think if Hughes had stayed whilst we added Silva, Yaya etc (Disregarding the fact that those players may not even have come to play under Hughes, another factor not being considered), we would have achieved what we did under Mancini? I'm going firmly with not a cat in hells chance. Some people are just right for a certain time in a clubs development, and that really is key for Tottenham.

Still, I can find examples of what I think are good managers over achieving and you'll find examples where you feel the manager isn't making any difference, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Bill]

Al Jazeera 1 showing the replay of the rag match

very very nice to see that mercenary Adebayor being stretchered off. will see him in another shirt very soon methinks.

That's out of order, how can you wish for another human being to be hurt?

did you ask De Niro that when he went down that path a few weeks ago?

Can't remember, must have deserved it.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

That's out of order, how can you wish for another human being to be hurt?

did you ask De Niro that when he went down that path a few weeks ago?

Can't remember, must have deserved it.

always do when it's a mod and not a normal user.