It's Quiet - a new dawn

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Its the exact formation we played against Everton in October and Sane and Sterling were in those exact positions and I would argue it was one of our most impressive displays of the season.

I don't expect them to play there regularly. But I expect any number of formations next season and players playing in any number of positions. We will have about 15-17 true starters and they will rotate for starts throughout the season and there will not be the kind of drop off we see now when we have to rest a player because of form or injury IMO.

The Barca comparisons have already been addressed. This is not Spain. If we had proper depth we would still be fighting for the title. We have 4 top class attackers competing for 3 spots and it clearly is not enough. That is a fact that you haven't actually addressed yet.
Apologies, I'm mistaken. But if people believe the Mbappe and Sanchez rumours then they must believe the new fullbacks have been sorted rumours. Which would drastically affect the potential to set up both wingers as fullbacks imo. Otherwise why address the fullback issue at all.

As for the Spain point, that holds no relation to injuries so I don't buy that. Who are the world class backups at Barca for when the front three get injured? Nobody at that level or similar. They play those three exclusively, the threat of injury is the same here as it is in Spain.

I have addressed that 4 into 3 in fact. We have more than 4 attacking options, the drop off is too great as everyone knows. Are the 4 'quality' players we have not enough because we don't create enough? No. Do we not score enough? For chances created we don't but overall we score a lot more than others. Is that a numbers issue? No, it's a quality issue; to the extent of one aspect to otherwise quality player's game; Sterling's finishing is not great, extend it to Silva's which is non-existent, even De Bruyne hasn't scored in forvever and Aguero's not as clinical as he usually is. That's not a numbers issue, one that says "Go get more and more forwards". If Aguero leaves then I can see one forward coming in at his level or similar. 2? No, as again, it's not necessarily the issue of 5 into 3 not working, it's the issue of having 5 starting material, world class talents/players for 3 spots, it's not feasible imo and by feasible I mean it wouldn't work, not that it couldn't happen obviously.
 
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Apologies, I'm mistaken. But if people believe the Mbappe and Sanchez rumours then they must believe the new fullbacks have been sorted rumours. Which would drastically affect the potential to set up both wingers as fullbacks imo. Otherwise why address the fullback issue at all.

As for the Spain point, that holds no relation to injuries so I don't buy that. Who are the world class backups at Barca for when the front three get injured? Nobody at that level or similar. They play those three exclusively, the threat of injury is the same here as it is in Spain.

I have addressed that 4 into 3 in fact. We have more than 4 attacking options, the drop off is too great as everyone knows. Are the 4 'quality' players we have not enough because we don't create enough? No. Do we not score enough? For chances created we don't but overall we score a lot more than others. Is that a numbers issue? No, it's a quality issue; to the extent of one aspect to otherwise quality player's game; Sterling's finishing is not great, extend it to Silva's which is non-existent, even De Bruyne hasn't scored in forvever and Aguero's not as clinical as he usually is. That's not a numbers issue, one that says "Go get more and more forwards". If Aguero leaves then I can see one forward coming in at his level or similar. 2? No, as again, it's not necessarily the issue of 5 into 3 not working, it's the issue of having 5 starting material, world class talents/players for 3 spots, it's not feasible imo and by feasible I mean it wouldn't work, not that it couldn't happen obviously.

well if Pep wants them, Pep clearly has a plan for them. We have had Kolarov at CB, Navas at RB and Bravo wearing gloves after all.
 
Apologies, I'm mistaken. But if people believe the Mbappe and Sanchez rumours then they must believe the new fullbacks have been sorted rumours. Which would drastically affect the potential to set up both wingers as fullbacks imo. Otherwise why address the fullback issue at all.

As for the Spain point, that holds no relation to injuries so I don't buy that. Who are the world class backups at Barca for when the front three get injured? Nobody at that level or similar. They play those three exclusively, the threat of injury is the same here as it is in Spain.

I have addressed that 4 into 3 in fact. We have more than 4 attacking options, the drop off is too great as everyone knows. Are the 4 'quality' players we have not enough because we don't create enough? No. Do we not score enough? For chances created we don't but overall we score a lot more than others. Is that a numbers issue? No, it's a quality issue; to the extent of one aspect to otherwise quality player's game; Sterling's finishing is not great, extend it to Silva's which is non-existent, even De Bruyne hasn't scored in forvever and Aguero's not as clinical as he usually is. That's not a numbers issue, one that says "Go get more and more forwards". If Aguero leaves then I can see one forward coming in at his level or similar. 2? No, as again, it's not necessarily the issue of 5 into 3 not working, it's the issue of having 5 starting material, world class talents/players for 3 spots, it's not feasible imo and by feasible I mean it wouldn't work, not that it couldn't happen obviously.
5 into 3
Simple way of making it work pep will be honest with them some games you will start some on the bench some not even in the squad and the reason why is because of your age
Mbappe 18
Jesus 20
Young lads who will need looking after not being burnt out playing twice a week
Sane and sterling bit older but still need to be looked after
Sanchez is a good pro but can't see him being happy not playing every game it just might depends on the games he misses
 
well if Pep wants them, Pep clearly has a plan for them. We have had Kolarov at CB, Navas at RB and Bravo wearing gloves after all.

His plan is to piss them off. He's said it so himself, just in a different manner. He's buying more players than is necessary because he wants competition for spots. His goal is to make the players uncomfortable. That's how he gets them to play hard.
 
Apologies, I'm mistaken. But if people believe the Mbappe and Sanchez rumours then they must believe the new fullbacks have been sorted rumours. Which would drastically affect the potential to set up both wingers as fullbacks imo. Otherwise why address the fullback issue at all.

As for the Spain point, that holds no relation to injuries so I don't buy that. Who are the world class backups at Barca for when the front three get injured? Nobody at that level or similar. They play those three exclusively, the threat of injury is the same here as it is in Spain.

I have addressed that 4 into 3 in fact. We have more than 4 attacking options, the drop off is too great as everyone knows. Are the 4 'quality' players we have not enough because we don't create enough? No. Do we not score enough? For chances created we don't but overall we score a lot more than others. Is that a numbers issue? No, it's a quality issue; to the extent of one aspect to otherwise quality player's game; Sterling's finishing is not great, extend it to Silva's which is non-existent, even De Bruyne hasn't scored in forvever and Aguero's not as clinical as he usually is. That's not a numbers issue, one that says "Go get more and more forwards". If Aguero leaves then I can see one forward coming in at his level or similar. 2? No, as again, it's not necessarily the issue of 5 into 3 not working, it's the issue of having 5 starting material, world class talents/players for 3 spots, it's not feasible imo and by feasible I mean it wouldn't work, not that it couldn't happen obviously.

My only point about Spain is it is a far far less demanding league physically. Its not necessarily about injuries but more about fatigue. Not everyone will agree with me on this but I personally think playing in England is far far more difficult than any other top league (especially Spain).

Its your first paragraph where I think the interesting debate is. I don't think we have to have the fullbacks sorted to also be looking at the attack. They aren't mutually exclusive. But, if these Sanchez AND Mbappe rumors are true and none of us know if they are it means Pep wants 5 world class attackers. He isn't dumb...so he will have thought about your argument which is a good one. But I expect like most things he will have a non-traditional solution to the issue. If we sell Aguero and buy two WC attackers, I do not expect that we would buy more than two fullbacks (a number of folks are expecting at least 3). And that is the key. I would happily go into the season with 1 LB and Maffeo backing up Fabinho because that gives Pep flexibility in other areas of the squad. If the LB is injured for a month we can play 3 at the back (or play someone like Delph or Zinchenko there--Hi @Dax777). When we play 4 at the back Fabinho comes into the team. If we play 3 though he is not necessarily affecting Sterling's shot at playing Wingback because you would not necessarily want Fabinho there. He may still start because he may be a perfect DM in that formation.

My overall point is that if Pep really is going after 5 WC attackers its an indication that he is going to try to get to his ideal squad size and makeup. Basically 17 top class players who all would be regular starters in any club fighting it out for 11 spots each game. WC players will be on the bench. But with injuries and suspensions and occasional rest for jaded players or players who are dipping in form you will have a lot of playing time, IF, and ONLY IF, those 17 players are flexible and are capable of playing in a number of positions.

If you are the kind of player that can't buy into that philosophy then you aren't the kind of player for this club. But if you are, you will have the chance to do something really special and win a lot of silverware. IMO this is the only kind of squad (in England) that realistically can compete for the treble or dare we dream the quadruple.
 
For the "new dawn," the sun has to come up. For the sun to come up, we need CL football next season. Let's not get ahead of ourselves.
 
This thread is funny to read, for people saying we can never satisfy 5 players in 3 positions, have you ever considered the 4-2-3-1 formation?

4 attacking players, using a second striker (like Jesus could easily play). Somebody like Silva or Kevin would have to play a deeper role but Silva isn't a great finisher anyways so I don't see a problem with relying on his passing and dribbling only.
 
This thread is funny to read, for people saying we can never satisfy 5 players in 3 positions...
That's not the concern. We have as many, more even, for the front 3 positions now. The concern, and scepticism, would be having 5 'world class' talents/players for 3 spots; it would be not only hard to sell to the potential players but virtually impossible to sustain.
My only point about Spain is it is a far far less demanding league physically. Its not necessarily about injuries but more about fatigue. Not everyone will agree with me on this but I personally think playing in England is far far more difficult than any other top league (especially Spain).

Its your first paragraph where I think the interesting debate is. I don't think we have to have the fullbacks sorted to also be looking at the attack. They aren't mutually exclusive. But, if these Sanchez AND Mbappe rumors are true and none of us know if they are it means Pep wants 5 world class attackers. He isn't dumb...so he will have thought about your argument which is a good one. But I expect like most things he will have a non-traditional solution to the issue. If we sell Aguero and buy two WC attackers, I do not expect that we would buy more than two fullbacks (a number of folks are expecting at least 3). And that is the key. I would happily go into the season with 1 LB and Maffeo backing up Fabinho because that gives Pep flexibility in other areas of the squad. If the LB is injured for a month we can play 3 at the back (or play someone like Delph or Zinchenko there--Hi @Dax777). When we play 4 at the back Fabinho comes into the team. If we play 3 though he is not necessarily affecting Sterling's shot at playing Wingback because you would not necessarily want Fabinho there. He may still start because he may be a perfect DM in that formation.

My overall point is that if Pep really is going after 5 WC attackers its an indication that he is going to try to get to his ideal squad size and makeup. Basically 17 top class players who all would be regular starters in any club fighting it out for 11 spots each game. WC players will be on the bench. But with injuries and suspensions and occasional rest for jaded players or players who are dipping in form you will have a lot of playing time, IF, and ONLY IF, those 17 players are flexible and are capable of playing in a number of positions.

If you are the kind of player that can't buy into that philosophy then you aren't the kind of player for this club. But if you are, you will have the chance to do something really special and win a lot of silverware. IMO this is the only kind of squad (in England) that realistically can compete for the treble or dare we dream the quadruple.
I agree that England is the more physically demanding league, undoubtedly. Probably the most in that regard in Europe. However, the point that we may play 50/60 odd games a season is the same for any top club and at that point, such an amount, fatigue/injury concern/demand becomes much of the same and my example of Barca's front 3 play when they're fit probably 99% of the time; I genuinely don't know, but did any of the 3 miss any CL games this season when available outside of match day 6 when it was a dead rubber? I can't ever see two of them being dropped in favour of the next, or because of the prior, league game.

If the rumours of a fullback each side being sounded out and sorted are true then, in my opinion, it may stand at; 1 new LB and Kolarov by virtue of a year to go on his contract, and Maffeo and a new RB as well as potentially Fernandinho filling in. I see those 5 potential options as the options at FB. I don't believe that Pep would bring in a potential FB if they weren't capable of playing the various systems; i.e. a wingback with 3 at the back or a traditional FB with 4 at the back. The Alaba, Rafinha, Alba, Alves type players. Not Ribery, Robben, Villa, Henry dropping deeper and tasked with being the wingback.

Hence I see Sterling and Sane as, not strictly, attacking players but certainly not wing backs in either a traditional manner like Dani Alves or even the stop gap-ish way that Navas is now.

Like Kolarov has played CB and LB, Sterling has played all 3 forward positions; that's his flexibility. It doesn't always have to filter up or down a level; defence to midfield, midfield to defence, attack to midfield etc. That'll be the same for Jesus who can play through the middle or out wide, most comfortably, on the left. That will show case his flexibilty to the squad; those 'projects' won't always be extreme. They'll be as useful and as simple as the likes of Kolarov going from CB to LB; I use 'useful' lightly!

In essence my point is that the likes of Sane and Sterling won't be wing backs to accommodate Mbappe and Sanchez or vice versa. Sure look at Sanchez, his versatility is playing out wide or through the middle, with varying degrees of success tbf, his work rate is a huge plus but it doesn't translate to being defensively sound to play a defensive minded position like wing back; like Sterling, Sane etc don't have either.

So it's still Sane, Sterling, Jesus assuming Aguero leaves. Like it's Sane, Sterling and Aguero now with Jesus injured. As I said before, are those 3 not enough because they aren't good enough or we aren't creating enough? No, it's the poor finishing. Bringing in 2 world class talents isn't necessarily the answer to that because you'll be sacrificing a player or two and their other qualities for the sake of another. Like dropping Silva or De Bruyne because they couldn't score in a brothel, you miss everything else they bring. As we will the likes of Sterling etc.

And as we're seeing in Madrid and Munich, someone eventually wants out.

Personally, as I mentioned earlier, I would think if we have registered interest in both players it's again more of a case of it being better in being in on the ground floor with discussions and negotiations given the uncertainty of transfers. Like how Aguero was the back up to Sanchez. I imagine both were sounded out and contacted and when Sanchez fell through the club pushed on with Sergio. Rather than saying "Well Sanchez isn't happening, what now?" And it being too late.
 
This thread is funny to read, for people saying we can never satisfy 5 players in 3 positions, have you ever considered the 4-2-3-1 formation?

4 attacking players, using a second striker (like Jesus could easily play). Somebody like Silva or Kevin would have to play a deeper role but Silva isn't a great finisher anyways so I don't see a problem with relying on his passing and dribbling only.
The problem with a lot of the arguments is that it discusses player usage in generalities and in a vacuum.

Based on what we are guessing here is what the averages expectations are;

Ederson
Fabihno
Gaya
Laporte
Mbappe
Sanchez

Now add that 6 to the expected core and you have

Ederson, Bravo, Gunn

Fabihno, Maffeo, Gaya

Stones, Otamendi, Kompany, Laporte

Silva, Debryune, Gundogan, Delph, Dihno

Sterling, Sane, Sanchez, GJ, Mpabbe.

There is no formation that doesn't exclude someone Significantly.

Either we don't use those new fullbacks much in a 3 CB formation, or if we play say a 4231 using 4 of the 5 forward options as starters then 1 of Silva, Debryune or Gundogan has to sit a lot and not play. And there would be almost no playing time for Dihno or Delph outside of away games defensive specialists.

5 strikers rock the balance of things considerably.

.
 
Young players should be given time to develop and opportunities to rest and having 4 of our potential forward 5 under 21 / 22 years old will work just fine under Pep. Plenty of competitions and international matches for them to progress in and also injuries plus varied formations will give everyone plenty of game time.
 
5 into 3 has its problems, keeping 5 world class players happy

4 into 3 has its problems, injuries such as the one that's keeping Gabriel Jesus out.

It really comes down to which problem Pep would rather have, keeping players happy or keeping the players fresh and having cover for injuries. My guess is that he would prefer the 5 into 3 problems.
 
5 into 3 has its problems, keeping 5 world class players happy

4 into 3 has its problems, injuries such as the one that's keeping Gabriel Jesus out.

It really comes down to which problem Pep would rather have, keeping players happy or keeping the players fresh and having cover for injuries. My guess is that he would prefer the 5 into 3 problems.

You would always rather have the extra numbers, you've got to account for injuries, loss of form and suspensions.
 
You would always rather have the extra numbers, you've got to account for injuries, loss of form and suspensions.

I agree, but when Champions league comes around and Pep picks certain players, I expect the others will know they are his second choice. That's when problems may come. It's not just numbers of games to top players it's the quality of those games as well.
 
It's not fkn 5 into 3 it is 7 into 5 ffs
This discussion is being repeated again and again. Silva and KDB positions need factoring in. Sanchez can and does drop deeper to play the creative role, as has Gabriel. This gives us real options and depth across the front 5 positions. 1 injury in that front 5 and it begins to look a bit thin but Gundogan steps up as well.
 
5 into 3 has its problems, keeping 5 world class players happy

4 into 3 has its problems, injuries such as the one that's keeping Gabriel Jesus out.

It really comes down to which problem Pep would rather have, keeping players happy or keeping the players fresh and having cover for injuries. My guess is that he would prefer the 5 into 3 problems.

4 world class players into 3 with 1 very capable sub. Someone who accepts sitting on the bench
 
It's not fkn 5 into 3 it is 7 into 5 ffs
This discussion is being repeated again and again. Silva and KDB positions need factoring in. Sanchez can and does drop deeper to play the creative role, as has Gabriel. This gives us real options and depth across the front 5 positions. 1 injury in that front 5 and it begins to look a bit thin but Gundogan steps up as well.

Yep, I've said this before. Too many people in here looking at it as 1-for-1 swaps amongst our front three instead of varied rotation in the entire squad. Pep plays a lot of attacking players in a lot of different positions. Normally, in his first year, he is less daring but due to injuries etc he's been forced to even do this with Navas and Fernandinho, among others.

Sanchez has the flexibility to play in any position in the front three or to play deeper ala Silva/KDB, which would be absolutely invaluable. So too Mbappe also has experience playing both centrally and wide this season and previous. Having players like that who can shift from one position to another and still provide the threat we require, and have lacked at many times this season, affords Pep the ability to rotate and field a strong side even if there are three games in a week and even switch mid-game as necessary.

I feel, however, those who are against the idea are primarily so because of Kun, rather than fear that players will get upset at Pep's rotation.
 
all of this is forgetting the very talented youngsters in our academy who might deserve a game here or there next season. brahim diaz and sancho. not forgetting patrick roberts of course
 
all of this is forgetting the very talented youngsters in our academy who might deserve a game here or there next season. brahim diaz and sancho. not forgetting patrick roberts of course
I actually see a smaller more flexible squad next year with youngsters as the back up when all the flexible options are not available/ limited.
 
So, based off what I am reading, this is what we should expect for next year?

Keepers
Ederson
Bravo/Caballero
Gunn

Defenders
Fabinho?
Stones
New
New

Otamendi
Kolarov
Mafeo
Kompany(??)

Midfielders
Gundogan
Fernandinho
Silva
DeBruyne
Delph
Garcia
Carvalho?

Forwards
Sterling
Sane
Jesus
Sanchez
Mbappe

Roberts

Not all of the new players I entered are necessarily the ones I want to come, rather who I am reading the most about on here. Leaner squad that can be supplemented with kids. Forwards can play anywhere across the front. Versatile midfielders, personnel for a back 3 and back 4, and the likes of Fabinho who can play several positions.
 
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