General Election June 8th

Who will you vote for at the General Election?

  • Conservatives

    Votes: 189 28.8%

  • Labour

    Votes: 366 55.8%

  • Liberal Democrats

    Votes: 37 5.6%

  • SNP

    Votes: 8 1.2%

  • UKIP

    Votes: 23 3.5%

  • Other

    Votes: 33 5.0%
  • Total voters
    656
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SWP's back said:
So as a socialist, you have issue with the Tories not promising to freeze tax rates?

Surely this is great news?
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I have no issue with tax rates unfrozen, there will at some point always be times when anecessary tax rises, freezes or reductions, and depending on how it's done may be needed.

Never said different, I said funny how it's portayed as if tories do it it's good management, if labour do it it's bad economics.

Labours economic record while in government is generally better than the tories, they have suffered from being twice in power during the worst ever global finacial meltdowns, but on the whole they have ran a decent treasury, and invested in the country when financially sound, where when the toroes have been overlooking a financially sound economy they have shared the wealth amongst a minority and let the rest eat cake.
 
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urban genie said:
I have no issue with tax rates unfrozen, there will at some point always be at times necessary tax rises, freezes or reductions, and depending on how it's done.

Never said different, I said funny how it's portayed as if tories do it it's good management, if labour do it it's bad economics.
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Pure spin and brain washing. Look at the national debt since the Tories took over - but of course that's all the fault of the last labour govt and not a failure of their slash and burn economics. We had the same in the 8O's. Every financial up was their good governance, and every down was somehow the fault of labour in the 70's.
 
urban genie said:
I have no issue with tax rates unfrozen, there will at some point always be times when anecessary tax rises, freezes or reductions, and depending on how it's done may be needed.

Never said different, I said funny how it's portayed as if tories do it it's good management, if labour do it it's bad economics.

Labours economic record while in government is generally better than the tories, they have suffered from being twice in power during the worst ever global finacial meltdowns, but on the whole they have ran a decent treasury, and invested in the country when financially sound, where when the toroes have been overlooking a financially sound economy they have shared the wealth amongst a minority and let the rest eat cake.
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Labour have never left office with the economy in a better state than the one they found though.
 
SWP's back said:
Labour have never left office with the economy in a better state than the one they found though.
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How many govts do? Surely that's a big part of getting unelected. I do concede though that the Blair govt were lucky to ride the crest of a financial wave when they got in.
 
urban genie said:
I have no issue with tax rates unfrozen, there will at some point always be times when anecessary tax rises, freezes or reductions, and depending on how it's done may be needed.

Never said different, I said funny how it's portayed as if tories do it it's good management, if labour do it it's bad economics.

Labours economic record while in government is generally better than the tories, they have suffered from being twice in power during the worst ever global finacial meltdowns, but on the whole they have ran a decent treasury, and invested in the country when financially sound, where when the toroes have been overlooking a financially sound economy they have shared the wealth amongst a minority and let the rest eat cake.
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Unfortunately those Labour governments are now being denounced by Corbyn's supporters as "Tory lite" or "neo liberals". The question is whether a Labour government led by Corbyn and McDonnell would run a decent treasury?
 
SWP's back said:
As I say, excellent news for you.
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Just watching Mayday speak and so far its "strong and stable government" - "coalition of chaos" - " Brexit means Brexit" - soundbites and no substance whatsoever - no mention of or denial of their intention to raise direct and indirect taxation - Tax and Spend Theresa it is - yes brilliant campaigning from my point of view.

Seems funny that a no hope non entity like Corbyn worries her so much
 
bluethrunthru said:
ha ha ha keep polishing that turd mate. Its bullshit campaigning. Facts are many many Tory voters are pro Brexit and anti the overseas aid being paid - so she guarantees that. Many are pensioners who have done rather well out of the government they voted in - she refuses to confirm the triple lock will remain intact. They got voted in two years ago on a manifesto that promised no VAT and income tax rises - Hammond wants that abolished.

Now I am not saying these things wouldn't have formed part of the difficult decisions they have to make but FFS don't they know how to campaign? Putting this out there in week one is crass mis-management of the campaign they will now find the debate moving away from what they feel their strong suit is of Brexit onto home policies where clearly they don't have a good story to tell and the clamour for her to go on the TV debates and face the people and the the other party leaders and answer questions about this will just increase - when she does that will be seen as another U-turn - if she doesn't it will be spun that all they have said is nailed on and they are going to raise taxes and bash pensioners whilst giving money away in aid. Whenever was that Tory policy?

Beauty of it is no opposing leader needs do too much whilst they go around shooting each other in the feet like this - shambolic
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Have you ever thought that:

1. They are aware of the difficulties that are likely in the coming years - and decided that they need a large majority and 'extra time' to see it through
2. They recognise that they might need to do some very unpopular things - raise taxes, row back a bit on pensions etc.
3. They are listening to what the polls say and decide to call the election, now having taken that decision...........
4. Maybe they are thinking that 'perhaps - just perhaps' they could not just actually win this election and to have a mandate for negotiations, but......
4. Put in place May's manifesto - the one she would like to have and not one Cameron put in place due to pressures from the Hard Right and others, because
5. Perhaps, she wants to steal 'everybody's clothes' and move the party to the centre ground - which I believe that she has stated is her aim
6. And given the lead in the polls and everyone focussing on Brexit, she thinks that she can achieve/get away with 'reserving positions'

Now, I am not saying that this is the strategy - but you sometimes need to let your mind think outside your preferences, passions and prejudices.

I find it interesting that:

7. They have very early on in the campaign let these rumours/messages leak out - but they have not announced them - or repudiated them
8. There is no confirmation of them in any way and the opportunity is there for May and her strategists to test the water and see what happens to public opinion
9. If the public priority remains getting us the fuck out of the EU, then she can shape her manifesto accordingly, of course....
10. She is not going to announce in it that she is going to make changes to taxes and pensions - she just avoids being unable to do so if she needs to, but...
11. If the polls start to become adversely impacted by these rumours - all she has to do is restate the policies in her manifesto.

You choose to think that it is all incompetence - I might be giving them more credit that they deserve, or, as I suggested, it may be clever/good management and appropriate forward planning.

I predict that if there is early adverse impact in the polls that is deemed to be down to these rumours, you will see the manifesto reflect commitments on pensions and tax accordingly - if not there will be very positive words but no commitment - they of course will not be announcing that they are going to make cuts on pensions and hikes in taxes.
 
mcfc1632 said:
Have you ever thought that:

1. They are aware of the difficulties that are likely in the coming years - and decided that they need a large majority and 'extra time' to see it through
2. They recognise that they might need to do some very unpopular things - raise taxes, row back a bit on pensions etc.
3. They are listening to what the polls say and decide to call the election, now having taken that decision...........
4. Maybe they are thinking that 'perhaps - just perhaps' they could not just actually win this election and to have a mandate for negotiations, but......
4. Put in place May's manifesto - the one she would like to have and not one Cameron put in place due to pressures from the Hard Right and others, because
5. Perhaps, she wants to steal 'everybody's clothes' and move the party to the centre ground - which I believe that she has stated is her aim
6. And given the lead in the polls and everyone focussing on Brexit, she thinks that she can achieve/get away with 'reserving positions'

Now, I am not saying that this is the strategy - but you sometimes need to let your mind think outside your preferences, passions and prejudices.

I find it interesting that:

7. They have very early on in the campaign let these rumours/messages leak out - but they have not announced them - or repudiated them
8. There is no confirmation of them in any way and the opportunity is there for May and her strategists to test the water and see what happens to public opinion
9. If the public priority remains getting us the fuck out of the EU, then she can shape her manifesto accordingly, of course....
10. She is not going to announce in it that she is going to make changes to taxes and pensions - she just avoids being unable to do so if she needs to, but...
11. If the polls start to become adversely impacted by these rumours - all she has to do is restate the policies in her manifesto.

You choose to think that it is all incompetence - I might be giving them more credit that they deserve, or, as I suggested, it may be clever/good management and appropriate forward planning.

I predict that if there is early adverse impact in the polls that is deemed to be down to these rumours, you will see the manifesto reflect commitments on pensions and tax accordingly - if not there will be very positive words but no commitment - they of course will not be announcing that they are going to make cuts on pensions and hikes in taxes.
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she is on TV right now being given the opportunity to deny they will raise tax and she won't - she just says that Labour would raise taxes - so increased Tory taxes it seems to be and on Brexit the EU hand is strengthened by this election as it will bring divisions out in the UK again whilst the EU get on with trade talks with the US - the 27 will make sure they are able to whilst we are locked out until we leave. This election gamble is rapidly turning turtle on her.
 
And another factor that I would suggest should be part of the Tory's Election/Manifesto planning is that this is a GE - not a referendum.

There are lots of current Tory seats that voted Remain - but they will not now vote anything else other than Tory.

There are a lot of labour seats that voted Leave - and might just be willing - on this occasion - to vote Tory to ensure that their Leave aspiration is realised.

Of course in a lot of these target Labour seats the impact of possible tax rises etc. might actually be a beneficial message for the Tories in this GE - just think it through.

It is not going to make 'high-earners' in Tory seats vote differently. They have a risk of tax rises with the Tories vs certainty with Labour - whereas those in Labour seats that would not be badly affected by tax rises and have thought for a long time that the Tories are '....all about tax reductions for the rich....' might find it easier to swallow their pride and vote Tory on this occasion to achieve Brexit.

What you see as 'bullshit campaigning' might just be part of a clever strategy - maybe no, but it is good to debate by thinking outside the box.
 
cibaman said:
Unfortunately those Labour governments are now being denounced by Corbyn's supporters as "Tory lite" or "neo liberals". The question is whether a Labour government led by Corbyn and McDonnell would run a decent treasury?
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Clemente Atlee, Ramsey Mcdonnel and Harrold Wilson? really have they? do you lot understand the difference between SWP, momentum, Progress, fabians and non affiliated labour members to any of them.,random bellends on twitter do not represent the whole mevement.

The generalisation of the left is as ridiculous as saying all tories are thatcherite evil bastards, some are not
 
bluethrunthru said:
she is on TV right now being given the opportunity to deny they will raise tax and she won't - she just says that Labour would raise taxes - so increased Tory taxes it seems to be and on Brexit the EU hand is strengthened by this election as it will bring divisions out in the UK again whilst the EU get on with trade talks with the US - the 27 will make sure they are able to whilst we are locked out until we leave. This election gamble is rapidly turning turtle on her.
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Sorry - you really are not thinking or hearing outside what you want to think and hear.
 
mcfc1632 said:
And another factor that I would suggest should be part of the Tory's Election/Manifesto planning is that this is a GE - not a referendum.

There are lots of current Tory seats that voted Remain - but they will not now vote anything else other than Tory.

There are a lot of labour seats that voted Leave - and might just be willing - on this occasion - to vote Tory to ensure that their Leave aspiration is realised.

Of course in a lot of these target Labour seats the impact of possible tax rises etc. might actually be a beneficial message for the Tories in this GE - just think it through.

It is not going to make 'high-earners' in Tory seats vote differently. They have a risk of tax rises with the Tories vs certainty with Labour - whereas those in Labour seats that would not be badly affected by tax rises and have thought for a long time that the Tories are '....all about tax reductions for the rich....' might find it easier to swallow their pride and vote Tory on this occasion to achieve Brexit.

What you see as 'bullshit campaigning' might just be part of a clever strategy - maybe no, but it is good to debate by thinking outside the box.
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I still say though the Tory problem is the Tory seats where they voted leave, the labour sets where they voted leave and the marginals. Wherever pensioners are if there is a threat to the triple lock or wherever Leavers are who appear now not be be getting what they thought they were voting for the Tories don't have the problem of them voting another way nor do Labour - I'd suspect that most just won't bother voting in a "none of the parties above" style protest move.

In Tory safe seats probably not a problem but in Labour Leave seats and marginals if the Tories can't get people to change alliances or just maintain their support they won't gain ground. Hardened Tories won't vote any other way they just won't bother - I'd suspect most Labour Leavers would baulk at Tory too - as I say a major gamble on Mays part not the foregone conclusion most thought
 
SWP's back said:
Labour have never left office with the economy in a better state than the one they found though.
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Ramsay MacDonald government of 1929-31 coincided with the Wall Street Crash (they left a 12% increase in the debt to GDP ratio), and the Blair-Brown government of 1997-2010 coincided with the 2008 financial sector insolvency crisis (an 11% increase). The other Labour governments all reduced the scale of the national debt, Clement Attlee's 1945-51 government reduced the national debt by 40% of GDP despite having to rebuild the UK economy from the ruins of the Second World War. Harold Wilson's 1964-70 government reduced the national debt by 27% of GDP and even the Wilson-Callaghan government of 1974-79 managed to reduce the debt by 4% of GDP.

The majority of Labour governments have ended up reducing the national debt, and the two that didn't coincided with the biggest global financial crisis of the 20th and 21stCenturies

Along with that they achieved the formation of the NHS, biggest house building project in this country, the transition from empire, the end of the death penalty, legalisation of divorce, homosexuality, minimum wage, etc
 
mcfc1632 said:
Sorry - you really are not thinking or hearing outside what you want to think and hear.
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I just checked - the sound on my TV is working and I did listen to the speech by May and the Q&A after - all the comments I made stand - she just drone on the Sir Linton mantra - strong stable government / coalition of chaos - and dodged answering questions on tax and the EU getting in bed with the US. Did you watch it? What do you think she said? Bear in mind it can be rewatched on the iPlayer and many other outlets
 
Err...

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