General Election June 8th

Who will you vote for at the General Election?

  • Conservatives

    Votes: 189 28.8%

  • Labour

    Votes: 366 55.8%

  • Liberal Democrats

    Votes: 37 5.6%

  • SNP

    Votes: 8 1.2%

  • UKIP

    Votes: 23 3.5%

  • Other

    Votes: 33 5.0%
  • Total voters
    656
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Mëtal Bikër said:
Wrong poster.

Thats because, since Article 50 has been invoked and the decision to leave the EU has been given Royal Assent, we are ALL technically "leave" voters now, just that some more emphatic about the result than others, for obvious reasons. There's no point referring to 'remain' voters as 'remain voters' anymore, only as a point of reference to those who still have doubts about the discussions. To a remainer, the 'best deal' is staying in the EU. That reality is no longer possible, so the decision to vote Conservative to get the "best Brexit deal" is one that closely resembles the decision people took last year. If at the voting booth people don't want to turn their backs on Europe completely, the results will reflect the national interest.

People already know going in the stances of both parties on the issue. One will be rejected, one supported. I don't predict those who voted remain want to undermine the A50 process, it's the Pro-EU types like Farron, Thornberry, Lammy and Cooper who reject the result and want to overturn the process whose views I 'disregard' as I find them detrimental to the process.

Also, regarding the bold statement, stop making assumptions about what I think. "It appears you believe...". No, I don't think that at all, it's your assumption and it doesn't help the debate either talking about it. It just derails into ad hominem attacks and turns into petty spats. I don't 'hate' remainers for voting the way they did or for not being happy about the result. I simply don't respect those who refuse to accept the result yet expected us to do so and have invented the concepts of hard and soft options for leaving when none of those were even debated or discussed prior to the vote itself as being options.

There were only two, Leave or Remain; not Leave fully, Leave softly, Remain softly or Remain fully. This election will, partly, seek to eliminate all confusion about it. I don't trust the Labour Party to deliver a 'Leave fully' negotiation that I voted for.
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"It appears you believe...".
I can only interpret what I read, hence use of 'appear'. I've not referenced 'hate', that's your introduction here.

I view the concepts of Hard/Soft as the overall outcome, after the new agreements are formed. If there are 20 points of contention, the country may be better off giving up 5 for the overall good. Those 20 won't be independent of each other, so it's not straightforward. Refusing to give ground on any of them is 'hard'. Just to be clear, at no point am I suggesting that any point should all be given up without getting something in return. How hard/soft is a matter for the negotiations.
 
bronco said:
Well for instance decent pensions with jobs,which a great many retired people now live on , 40 hours or less a week , paid holidays ,sick pay etc, etc....all brought about by trade unions in tandem with labour governments - these have all been undone due to 40 years off neo liberalism starting with thatcher and carried on by Blair - do any of you ever read 20th century social history?
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Some people want 40 hours less a week. That's their choice, as it is mine.
Paid holidays, do they include the Bank Holidays that Labour took of us? I mean it's nice being given an extra week but it's kind of pointless if your family and friends are celebrating the bank holiday and you're forced to work because Labour made it compulsory for those in the retail and service sectors.
Also, why was it when Labour introduced the Minimum Wage, my hourly wage went DOWN to meet it, not up and didn't rise in all the years they were in power? Yet the Conservatives introduced a Minimum Living Wage which, whilst not perfect, has seen my pay rise from £5.85 to £7.50.
These Trade Unions don't seem to be applicable to every company though. Labour had 13 years in power to make this happen but didn't, so my company still, to date anyway, do not approve of setting up a union for it's staff members. Mind you, we're being taken over so that might change, who knows.

The 1970's version of Labour is not the Labour I associate with and if it chooses to adopt these principles and ideologies it has lost this Labour voter. Mind you most Labour fanatics tell us all to "fuck off and vote Tory if we don't like Corbyn".

Okay then, we will, just don't be surprised or blaming the Russians if the Conservatives DO get a landslide victory.
 
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mcfc1632 said:
I tend to deal in facts - It would not take much reasoning for anyone to come to the realization that what #I posted is clearly factual - it does take objectivity though.

The possible middle ground that you allude to is, if the Labour policy came to be the UK's policy, wholly handed over to be offered entirely at the EU's discretion and goodwill - entirely on their terms
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The first bit reads as patronising condescension.

The last bit reads to lack any objectivity at all. I don't believe the Labour Party or anyone else expects the UK to accept whatever the EU position is utterly. I also think that anyone truly with that opinion is someone I'd rather not try logic with.
 
MillionMilesAway said:
"It appears you believe...".
I can only interpret what I read, hence use of 'appear'. I've not referenced 'hate', that's your introduction here.

I view the concepts of Hard/Soft as the overall outcome, after the new agreements are formed. If there are 20 points of contention, the country may be better off giving up 5 for the overall good. Those 20 won't be independent of each other, so it's not straightforward. Refusing to give ground on any of them is 'hard'. Just to be clear, at no point am I suggesting that any point should all be given up without getting something in return. How hard/soft is a matter for the negotiations.
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Oh grow up. "Hate" hitherto meaning dislike/criticise, choose whichever. You complain about others being condescending or patronising yet you do it yourself. Unbelievable.

You keep imagining scenarios of if's, hows and whens and that's not for this thread. Stay on topic. The issue was about people not believing Labour can deliver on Brexit.
 
No problem it's a fast moving thread.
Leaving the EU was the decision of the referendum and the major players who were remainers and are still remainers are trying to hoodwink the public by trying to explain that no change is a realistic Brexit, that would be ignoring the wishes of voters who voted to leave. Paying attention to anyone who wants to ignore the referendum is something I hope May doesn't do. I firmly believe that this GE will centre around Brexit and the manifestos of each major party will have to contain real substance on that exit strategy.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
Are you just looking for arguments or something? http://forums.bluemoon-mcfc.co.uk/threads/article-50-brexit-negotiations.327393/page-214

16.1m voted to stay, not 17m. 17.4 m voted to leave.
There IS no 'Conservative version' or a 'Lib Dem version' or a 'Labour version' of 'Brexit' (I fucking hate that term).

There is no 'soft brexit' or 'hard brexit'. There's just the UK no longer being a member of the European Union. That was the question put to us. If it had been the other result would there have been renegotiations for 'soft remain' and 'hard remain'? No, so why is there suddenly 'options' regarding the extent to which we leave the EU?

Voting Labour will still result in the UK leaving the EU. Voting Lib Dem will also give the same result, so it doesn't matter about voting Conservative in this election regarding Brexit.
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Sorry MB, your comment:

"Voting Labour will still result in the UK leaving the EU.........."

Is absolutely not now certain to be the case. - happy to explain why on the A50 thread
 
mcfc1632 said:
Sorry MB, your comment:

"Voting Labour will still result in the UK leaving the EU.........."

Is absolutely not now certain to be the case. - happy to explain why on the A50 thread
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Oooh, i'm intrigued
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
Oh grow up. "Hate" hitherto meaning dislike/criticise, choose whichever. You complain about others being condescending or patronising yet you do it yourself. Unbelievable.

You keep imagining scenarios of if's, hows and whens and that's not for this thread. Stay on topic. The issue was about people not believing Labour can deliver on Brexit.
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If that's the issue, I don't agree with it, and therefore will leave you to violently agree with each other.

Edited to remove contentious reply. Shouldn't have included it, even if it was deserved.
 
Eds said:
Isn't communism a form of socialism??
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A stepping stone, for some people.

It's seen by some as the answer to "socialism isn't socialist enough. So we'll ram it down their throats with Communism!"
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
Some people want 40 hours less a week. That's their choice, as it is mine.
Paid holidays, do they include the Bank Holidays that Labour took of us? I mean it's nice being given an extra week but it's kind of pointless if your family and friends are celebrating the bank holiday and you're forced to work because Labour made it compulsory for those in the retail and service sectors.
Also, why was it when Labour introduced the Minimum Wage, my hourly wage went DOWN to meet it, not up and didn't rise in all the years they were in power? Yet the Conservatives introduced a Minimum Living Wage which, whilst not perfect, has seen my pay rise from £5.85 to £7.50.
These Trade Unions don't seem to be applicable to every company though. Labour had 13 years in power to make this happen but didn't, so my company still, to date anyway, do not approve of setting up a union for it's staff members. Mind you, we're being taken over so that might change, who knows.

The 1970's version of Labour is not the Labour I associate with and if it chooses to adopt these principles and ideologies it has lost this Labour voter. Mind you most Labour fanatics tell us all to "fuck off and vote Tory if we don't like Corbyn".

Okay then, we will, just don't be surprised or blaming the Russians if the Conservatives DO get a landslide victory.
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It is hardly labours fault if your draconian employers won't allow unions is it ? Or take away your bank holidays, or take pay off you to meet MINIMUM wage ( think that may be illegal !!) ?
 
MillionMilesAway said:
Hilarious. Instructions on how to behave now. If that's the issue, I don't agree with it, and therefore will leave you to violently agree with each other.
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Well, that IS the topic of debate that I was responding to and I do agree with it and it's what I was discussing before you derailed it so...yeah, that's probably for the best.
 
mcfc1632 said:
Assuming that the leaking of the Labour Manifesto is accurate - it does make we wonder if they continue to think that a lot of their core support are thick and continue to take them for granted?

Some policies that will sound very appealing - no matter that there is very little credibility, IMO, of how they will be afforded - but surely they are all rendered meaningless by the stance on Brexit - do they really think that their voters cannot see the implications of that policy?

I raise this on the Election thread rather than the A50 thread because it is to do with the electability of Labour.

A UK stance that we will not leave the EU until we have an agreed trade deal simply hands a blank cheque to Juncker and his negotiators to invent as big a bill as possible - no matter if there is no credibility to it and state that they will not start discussions on trade until it is paid.

So the EU are handed a total win scenario - they get a massive lump sum - as big as they like - they can probably get an massive annual sum into the future - as big as they like - and if that does not happen - well essentially the UK stays in the EU and they secure our contributions for evermore on better terms than before 23/06.

Pure vandalism of the UK's interests - do they really think that the Leave voting Labour supporters cannot see that?
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Yeah, they should hold out for no deal at all, that's the smart move.
 
vonkeynotvenky said:
That wasn't my comment it was a comment from another poster and my reference to Farron was my reference to Farron not Corbyn.

Serious question, if remain had won the vote would the remain camp and the establishment have given those wanting to leave the time of day?
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No The losers don't get to tell the winners what to do.
And taken to extremes;
We are joining the Euro - unlucky we voted to remain
Your kids are joining the EU army via conscription - unlucky we voted to remain
 
bronco said:
It is hardly labours fault if your draconian employers won't allow unions is it ? Or take away your bank holidays, or take pay off you to meet MINIMUM wage ( think that may be illegal !!) ?
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Still didn't see Labour tackling it by introducing laws or fines for those that didn't. In fact I don't remember Labour doing anything to improve workers rights. Perhaps you could fill me in.

I mean could go further, like how they tried to shut down our local library and swimming baths (we fought against them and won) or how when our local shops shut down Kaufman himself said to us "well, go and shop in town then."

Labour, the people's party!
 
bronco said:
In other words - NO
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It's not secret to anyone that Communism and Socialism are linked with the former being a higher stage of socialism.
Socialism is the transition from Capitalism to Communism, with Communism being the aim. Socialists might not see them having identical aims, but Communists do.
 
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