General Election June 8th

[mcfc1632]

The first bit reads as patronising condescension.

The last bit reads to lack any objectivity at all. I don't believe the Labour Party or anyone else expects the UK to accept whatever the EU position is utterly. I also think that anyone truly with that opinion is someone I'd rather not try logic with.

Well try your own logic and apply it to the Labour statement that they will not exit the EU without a trade deal

Let's not be fanciful - let's not introduce crazy / extreme stances that the EU could/would be able to make given the policy leaked from Labour today. Don't forget the EU do not want us to leave - they would much prefer all this went away. In an absolute ideal world for the EU we stay in and have less than we had before - such as rebates and opt-outs....

Ignore my logic - In your mind and applying your logic let the parties take turns:

1. UK turn - Policy announced that the UK will not leave the EU until it has a trade deal

2. EU turn - We are not even going to discuss any possible future trade deal until the UK settle the bill that we have calculated - £50bn - no forget that £100bn

3. UK turn - go on then - what is it?? can you even suggest any options - given the fact that you have already declared that you will not leave etc..

I am avoiding my logic, but I could give you a number of choices - if only we had not been daft enough to hand all the negotiating power to the EU by saying that we will not leave without a trade deal........................

 

[jay_mcfc]

May looks absolutely exhausted. Mind it must be tiring remembering all these rhetoric buzzwords every single interview.

 

[mcfc1632]

Yeah, they should hold out for no deal at all, that's the smart move.

I think that you are trying to be sarcastic - but eventually not getting a deal is exactly what the Labour policy will lead to.

In fact it is inevitable unless the UK are willing to bend the knee to every demand - no matter how extreme and offensive - from the EU.

You have to adopt your own stance - but a lot of people would not be willing to see the UK agree to pay £100bn before talks commence on a trade deal - and many other conditions that the Labour policy invites the EU to bring forward.

You have criticised the 'cake and eat it' scenario that was mentioned by Boris. I agree with you on that - but the Labour policy would allow the EU to not only have their cake and eat it - but to have another tray in the oven - in fact as many trays and as many ovens as they would like to have.

There is an old saying - "..it you have got a lemon - squeeze it.." - in a world where the Labour policy became the UK policy - the UK would be the Lemon.

 

[arbabarshad]

It amazes me how so many people on here quote posts and take stances on them without actually reading them properly

My post was clearly about the simple fact that Labour's support in a large number of constituencies is vulnerable because there was a majority Leave vote - that is why my post focussed on that.

The concern for me - as someone that has voted Labour more often than for any other party - is that no matter how appealing some of the other headline policies may be - they are rendered, at a stroke, IMO, to be consigned to be side issues in this election by the stupidity of the Brexit policy.

Your opinion might be that the Labour Party's policy on Brexit is not a major factor for traditional Labour voters in all the many marginal Labour constituencies - you are entitled to your opinion, although I would suggest that the available evidence is mostly against you.

As for the credibility of the other policies that I questioned - well, I only made a brief comment because that was not the main thrust of my post. But of course whilst some of the policies themselves are attractive - some of the main Labour leaders this last couple of weeks have done a good job of casting their credibility in terms of affordability and therefore deliverability into doubt.

But that aside - if a Labour victory places the UK in a position where the EU is invited to milk the UK for as much money as it wants - as big (biggest) a bill as they can invent - well the UK is not going to be positioned to renationalise any industry - or invest £6bn into anything etc.

You say "...other policies may be more important to some people than brexit policy"

It would be great if there was no need to consider Brexit it in a GE and focus on all the other policies - but, again only IMO, that is simply not possible in this GE.

As I say I have voted for Labour more often than any other party - but FFS why to they continue to undermine themselves through their incoherence on all matters economic and fiscal.

Well in all honesty you sound a little defensive by saying twice that you have voted labour more than any other party.

I would also add that I was merely interested in your opinion on why you thought Labours other policies have little credibility, no where did I say anything as my opinion. Your trying to assume something as my opinion and then suggesting evidence is against my supposed opinion.

You also state that in the past two weeks, labour shadow cabinet's mistakes in the media leave them with little credibility on every policy. I would be interested to know your opinion on Tory governments performance over the last 7 years? And if that performance leaves them with great credibility?

 

[mcfc1632]

In this instance it isn't.

And guess what? The twenty seven know it.

They have never 'known it' - but they have for quite a few months had every reason to assume that the UK could/would never have either a viable option to walk-away and/or the strength of will to use it.

Fortunately, IMO, the PM has been able to 'defeat the EU acolytes that have been trying to undermine the UK's position and if this election goes as the polls suggest then the UK can put those distractions behind them and get on with negotiating

 

[The perfect fumble]

I think that you are trying to be sarcastic - but eventually not getting a deal is exactly what the Labour policy will lead to/

In fact it is inevitable unless the UK are willing to bend the knee to every demand - no matter how extreme and offensive - from the EU.

You have to adopt your own stance - but a lot of people would not be willing to see the UK agree to pay £100bn before talks commence on a trade deal - and many other conditions that the Labour policy invites the EU to bring forward.

You have criticised the 'cake and eat it' scenario that was mentioned by Boris. I agree with you in that - but the Labour policy not allows the EU to have their cake and eat it - but to have another tray in the oven - in fact as many trays and ovens as they would like to have.

There is an old saying - "..it you have got a lemon - squeeze it.." - in a world where the Labour policy became the UK policy - the UK would be the Lemon.

You should break the Overton window, take a deep breath of intoxicating freedom of thought and jump out of it.

 

[Len Rum]

Wrong poster.

Thats because, since Article 50 has been invoked and the decision to leave the EU has been given Royal Assent, we are ALL technically "leave" voters now, just that some more emphatic about the result than others, for obvious reasons. There's no point referring to 'remain' voters as 'remain voters' anymore, only as a point of reference to those who still have doubts about the discussions. To a remainer, the 'best deal' is staying in the EU. That reality is no longer possible, so the decision to vote Conservative to get the "best Brexit deal" is one that closely resembles the decision people took last year. If at the voting booth people don't want to turn their backs on Europe completely, the results will reflect the national interest.

People already know going in the stances of both parties on the issue. One will be rejected, one supported. I don't predict those who voted remain want to undermine the A50 process, it's the Pro-EU types like Farron, Thornberry, Lammy and Cooper who reject the result and want to overturn the process whose views I 'disregard' as I find them detrimental to the process.

Also, regarding the bold statement, stop making assumptions about what I think. "It appears you believe...". No, I don't think that at all, it's your assumption and it doesn't help the debate either talking about it. It just derails into ad hominem attacks and turns into petty spats. I don't 'hate' remainers for voting the way they did or for not being happy about the result. I simply don't respect those who refuse to accept the result yet expected us to do so and have invented the concepts of hard and soft options for leaving when none of those were even debated or discussed prior to the vote itself as being options.

There were only two, Leave or Remain; not Leave fully, Leave softly, Remain softly or Remain fully. This election will, partly, seek to eliminate all confusion about it. I don't trust the Labour Party to deliver a 'Leave fully' negotiation that I voted for.

At midnight on 28th March 2019 you will hear a cock crowing because you will have been betrayed three times by the reMAYner.
First on EU immigration
Second on accepting ECJ rules
Third on UK annual payments to the EU.
And you will weep.

 

[The perfect fumble]

May looks absolutely exhausted. Mind it must be tiring remembering all these rhetoric buzzwords every single interview.

She really is a talentless shabby little shyster.

 

[mat]

She really is a talentless shabby little shyster.

+1

 

[mcfc1632]

Well in all honesty you sound a little defensive by saying twice that you have voted labour more than any other party.

I would also add that I was merely interested in your opinion on why you thought Labours other policies have little credibility, no where did I say anything as my opinion. Your trying to assume something as my opinion and then suggesting evidence is against my supposed opinion.

You also state that in the past two weeks, labour shadow cabinet's mistakes in the media leave them with little credibility on every policy. I would be interested to know your opinion on Tory governments performance over the last 7 years? And if that performance leaves them with great credibility?

No not defensive - you read me wrong.

Not something that I mention very often - that I have voted Labour more than any other party (bollocks that's a third time now)

I mention it because I find on here that there are a number of posters (I am not referring to you) that get quite tribal and casually label people as if they must fit in camps.

Because I have clarity (IMO) about the issues with the EU and the perils for the UK by continued membership some of the more lazy posters make assumptions on my leanings.

 

[The perfect fumble]

At midnight on 28th March 2019 you will hear a cock crowing because you will have been betrayed three times by the reMAYner.
First on EU immigration
Second on accepting ECJ rules
Third on UK annual payments to the EU.
And you will weep.

Blimey!

I think we should ask the leavers to sing the following, as in "I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue"....

No man is an island,
Entire of itself,
Every man is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.....

And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.

To the tune of "Ode to Joy".

 

[mcfc1632]

You should break the Overton window, take a deep breath of intoxicating freedom of thought and jump out of it.

Ha ha - is this one of those posts of yours full of substance that you have said I ignore??

Fuck me I cannot win - you criticise if I do not respond and distract and avoid substance when I do

 

[The perfect fumble]

Ha ha - is this one of those posts of yours full of substance that you have said I ignore??

Fuck me I cannot win - you criticise if I do not respond and distract and avoid substance when I do

Frustrating isn't it.

You can't debate no deal is better than a bad deal, hush, hush leave it to professionals, don't know where we're headed but trust our betters, democracy is great but it begins and ends with an irrevocable tablet of stone referendum, all opposition are saboteurs giving succour to our enemies, they secretly want our country to fail.

You peddle this piffle all the time, it's pitiful.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Bank of England governor Mark Carney: real wages will fall this year...

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...t-rates-inflation-growth-brexit-business-live

I can't take all this good news.

 

[mcfc1632]

Frustrating isn't it.

You can't debate no deal is better than a bad deal, hush, hush leave it to professionals, don't know where we're headed but trust our betters, democracy is great but it begins and ends with an irrevocable tablet of stone referendum, all opposition are saboteurs giving succour to our enemies, they secretly want our country to fail.

You peddle this piffle all the time, it's pitiful.

Is that a substance post ?

I am finding it hard to recognise them

 

[bronco]

It's not secret to anyone that Communism and Socialism are linked with the former being a higher stage of socialism.
Socialism is the transition from Capitalism to Communism, with Communism being the aim. Socialists might not see them having identical aims, but Communists do.

But if that is true surely capitalism is an extension of fascism . some of the biggest fascists in history have taken over the running of their countries and enforced their own version of capitalism on all ?

 

[arbabarshad]

No not defensive - you read me wrong.

Not something that I mention very often - that I have voted Labour more than any other party (bollocks that's a third time now)

I mention it because I find on here that there are a number of posters (I am not referring to you) that get quite tribal and casually label people as if they must fit in camps.

Because I have clarity (IMO) about the issues with the EU and the perils for the UK by continued membership some of the more lazy posters make assumptions on my leanings.

Alright.

Back on policy, you support Tory stance on Brexit (correct me if my observation is incorrect).

What would you say about Tory credibility based on their performance over the last 7 years?

 

[blue cigar]

How are you defining poverty here?

The governments own figures released at the end of March. Planned cuts to age work related benefits are lokely to see another rise once they are applied. The Joseph Rowntree foundation, Gingerbread and Oxfam have warned the government of the crisis and upward trend.
In other news the Trussell trust has published a report describing huge increases of the number of people now using food banks.
No matter, so long as our shares perform and the banks are looked after who cares?
Strong and stable.

 

[Len Rum]

Just thought the leaked Labour manifesto was worth a mention.
To pinch a quote from the Don 'it's beautiful'.
A credible and fully costed center left alternative set of policies to fund our skint public services and take back into state control the country's assets which have been used by private companies to line the pockets of directors and shareholders at the expense of the public.
Unlike the previous Tory lite policies of Red Ed this manifesto is a serious alternative to the neo liberal policy pursued since Thatcher of privatization and the 'trickle down' financing of public services from the benefits of a low tax economy (NOT).

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

She really is a talentless shabby little shyster.

I'll tell you what. Before this election, I had hopes of May being a genuine one-nation Tory that would tone down some of Osborne's ideological excesses (because Cameron was just a pretty boy who never had an original thought in his life). But my opinion of her has gone down so low that not only do I see someone who is incapable of delivering change but someone who is a downright, evil liar. I hate the woman with a passion I can barely believe. Gordon Brown was someone I had no time for but he looks positively Churchillian next to May.

I'm still not convinced that Corbyn is a great leader but now we're getting to hear him more he's coming over as a very effective speaker and someone who has a passion for social justice. May, on the other hand, is like an ugly Barbie doll where you pull the string and it utters one of a few stock phrases. People are seeing the way the NHS and other public services are going and that she has no concept of, or meaningful answers for dealing with, the problems that ordinary people face. I think she's fucking this campaign up massively and it could be a lot tighter than people think.

At the start, I couldn't see who I was going to vote for as none of the main parties seemed to be offering much but now I will certainly be voting Labour and doing it enthusiastically.