General Election June 8th

[Hamann Pineapple]

Labour if elected WILL ruin the economy

Could you explain to me how you have reached this prophetic conclusion ?

 

[Gelsons Dad]

Let hope so!

not enough people in the UK for it to make a jot of difference. Why do you think Blair opened the floodgates?

 

[bucks]

Was just talking to the wife about May's latest attack on us oldsters and guess what, a Tory canvasser knocked on the door. Well we gave the **** both barrels as he stood there agreeing with everything we said and was just glad to get away with his pants still on. Ha!. From what I hear I can see some of this being watered down or kicked into the long grass in the next two weeks.

 

[JWBlueman]

The problem though Len is what to do about it? (If I accept what you say, which to be honest I probably don't).

Labour if elected WILL ruin the economy and make everyone worse off for years. So that's your choice: Tories as per your description, or ruin the economy and make everyone worse off. Take your pick.

People say labour will ruin the economy all the time.

Think back to 1945 when the British people elected Atlee. At the time the country was in the most gigantic debt. Crippled by war, in hock to the Americans for the next 50 years. Bankrupt.

What did labour do? They set up the NHS. They guaranteed every child a full time education from 4-16. They built millions of homes. They provided a nation 'fit for heroes'.

All of that cost money. A lot of money. Money the country didn't actually have.

Today's tories would have argued this would ruin the economy. But it did the opposite. The nation grew. The people were fed, educated, treated for illness, dentistry, sight issues. The people were housed in humane and sanitary conditions whatever they earned. As a basic human right.

This set the country up for the boom in the 50's and 60's.

Labour supported the unions. Who gave us the weekend. Overtime. The right to fair working practises.

All the tories have ever done is fight against the welfare state. They hate it.

And now, after decades of telling people to save, work hard, and buy their own home (to get them off the council's bankroll) these same people who did so in the 80's are now in or near retirement and guess what? They are changing the rules again so now if you become ill in old age the Tories will steal your home from you to pay for your care despite you paying in for decades.

Anybody on less than 100k a year who votes Tory is a deluded fool.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Could you explain to me how you have reached this prophetic conclusion ?

Two very simple ways.

1. History. They always have, always do. The only thing that varies is how left wing any particular Labour government is, and therefore how long it takes. Blair was not very left, so it took him and Brown a decade or so. Previous Labour PM's have ruined the economy much more swiftly.

2. Logic. You can only spend on public services what you can afford, i.e. what you take in tax receipts. Yes you can go overdrawn in the short term by borrowing, but in the end you have to earn what you spend. And you do not increase the amount of tax take by burdening the economy with higher tax rates. Businesses paying 27% corporation tax will have less money to hire people and to invest in new equipment, marketing etc. Their products and services will cost more and they will be less competitive. They will do less well. The economy will grow more slowly. It can never be a good thing to take more money off people and organisations, waste loads of it through typical government inefficiency and cock up. This is Labour in a nutshell. (I might add that loads of businesses would be tempted leave the UK if we were to raise corporation tax that high as well. The very last thing we need right now with businesses reviewing their strategy post-brexit.)

The aims and aspirations of Labour may all be very admirable, but the reality is, Labour does not work. What DOES work, is reducing red tape and employment costs, reducing taxes, creating and sustaining an environment for business to thrive. Businesses then make more profits, give people better pay rises, people with more money in their pockets and more confidence in their futures spend more. The economy grows swiftly. Tax receipts accelerate. This WORKS, as proven time and time and time again.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Was just talking to the wife about May's latest attack on us oldsters and guess what, a Tory canvasser knocked on the door. Well we gave the **** both barrels as he stood there agreeing with everything we said and was just glad to get away with his pants still on. Ha!. From what I hear I can see some of this being watered down or kicked into the long grass in the next two weeks.

I do hope so mate. I hope they come to my door!

 

[JWBlueman]

Two very simple ways.

1. History. They always have, always do. The only thing that varies is how left wing any particular Labour government is, and therefore how long it takes. Blair was not very left, so it took him and Brown a decade or so. Previous Labour PM's have ruined the economy much more swiftly.

2. Logic. You can only spend on public services what you can afford, i.e. what you take in tax receipts. Yes you can go overdrawn in the short term by borrowing, but in the end you have to earn what you spend. And you do not increase the amount of tax take by burdening the economy with higher tax rates. Businesses paying 27% corporation tax will have less money to hire people and to invest in new equipment, marketing etc. Their products and services will cost more and they will be less competitive. They will do less well. The economy will grow more slowly. It can never be a good thing to take more money off people and organisations, waste loads of it through typical government inefficiency and cock up. This is Labour in a nutshell.

The aims and aspirations of Labour may all be very admirable, but the reality is, Labour does not work. What DOES work, is reducing red tape and employment costs, reducing taxes, creating and sustaining an environment for business to thrive. Businesses then make more profits, give people better pay rises, people with more money in their pockets and more confidence in their futures spend more. The economy grows swiftly. Tax receipts accelerate. This WORKS, as proven time and time and time again.

If you were in the majority in 1945 we would not have had the NHS. Free education for all. Council houses for returning servicemen or their widows.

We also wouldn't have enjoyed 2 days off a week (giving the proles days off impacts productivity and costs business money). We wouldn't have paid holidays as a right.

People who argue against socialism but expect a socialist fire service to put out a fire when their house catches fire, people who call for the socialist police service when they are burgled, people who drive to work on socialist roads, people who hire workers fresh out of a socialist provided school, people who would expect a socialist military to defend the country in times of war make me laugh.

As a new poster I mean no personal offence but you have drunk the koolaid.

 

[Hamann Pineapple]

Two very simple ways.

1. History. They always have, always do. The only thing that varies is how left wing any particular Labour government is, and therefore how long it takes. Blair was not very left, so it took him and Brown a decade or so. Previous Labour PM's have ruined the economy much more swiftly.

2. Logic. You can only spend on public services what you can afford, i.e. what you take in tax receipts. Yes you can go overdrawn in the short term by borrowing, but in the end you have to earn what you spend. And you do not increase the amount of tax take by burdening the economy with higher tax rates. Businesses paying 27% corporation tax will have less money to hire people and to invest in new equipment, marketing etc. Their products and services will cost more and they will be less competitive. They will do less well. The economy will grow more slowly. It can never be a good thing to take more money off people and organisations, waste loads of it through typical government inefficiency and cock up. This is Labour in a nutshell. (I might add that loads of businesses would be tempted leave the UK if we were to raise corporation tax that high as well. The very last thing we need right now with businesses reviewing their strategy post-brexit.)

The aims and aspirations of Labour may all be very admirable, but the reality is, Labour does not work. What DOES work, is reducing red tape and employment costs, reducing taxes, creating and sustaining an environment for business to thrive. Businesses then make more profits, give people better pay rises, people with more money in their pockets and more confidence in their futures spend more. The economy grows swiftly. Tax receipts accelerate. This WORKS, as proven time and time and time again.

You seem to follow the belief that the economy will work for some as long as many remain poor. You also seem oblivious to Tory borrowing.

 

[KenTheLandlord]

Two very simple ways.

1. History. They always have, always do. The only thing that varies is how left wing any particular Labour government is, and therefore how long it takes. Blair was not very left, so it took him and Brown a decade or so. Previous Labour PM's have ruined the economy much more swiftly.

2. Logic. You can only spend on public services what you can afford, i.e. what you take in tax receipts. Yes you can go overdrawn in the short term by borrowing, but in the end you have to earn what you spend. And you do not increase the amount of tax take by burdening the economy with higher tax rates. Businesses paying 27% corporation tax will have less money to hire people and to invest in new equipment, marketing etc. Their products and services will cost more and they will be less competitive. They will do less well. The economy will grow more slowly. It can never be a good thing to take more money off people and organisations, waste loads of it through typical government inefficiency and cock up. This is Labour in a nutshell. (I might add that loads of businesses would be tempted leave the UK if we were to raise corporation tax that high as well. The very last thing we need right now with businesses reviewing their strategy post-brexit.)

The aims and aspirations of Labour may all be very admirable, but the reality is, Labour does not work. What DOES work, is reducing red tape and employment costs, reducing taxes, creating and sustaining an environment for business to thrive. Businesses then make more profits, give people better pay rises, people with more money in their pockets and more confidence in their futures spend more. The economy grows swiftly. Tax receipts accelerate. This WORKS, as proven time and time and time again.

1. Not true.
2. Your opinion.

 

[urban genie]

So may also wants to make voting only allowed if in possesion of a passport or driving licence.
Also they have abandoned the pledge to ban the ivory trade, seems like nothing to most I expect, but who the fuck needs ivory and the killing of elephants to get it.

 

[sir baconface]

I am not saying it was all good but I am saying it was a 50/50 split of Labour and Tory Govts that those extremes happened under - also I doubt that electing a Labour Govt in 2017 would reintroduce 70's industrial relations

Despite them wanting to renationalise industries and hand centralised monopoly power back to politicised twats such as the rail unions? Unions whose members are very comfortable, thank you very much, but who give not a diddly fcuk about customer service and will happily disrupt everyone in pursuit of their latest manufactured "cause". No thanks pal.

 

[KenTheLandlord]

Despite them wanting to renationalise industries and hand centralised monopoly power back to politicised twats such as the rail unions? Unions whose members are very comfortable, thank you very much, but who give not a diddly fcuk about customer service and will happily disrupt everyone in pursuit of their latest manufactured "cause". No thanks pal.

<<<Head in hands>>>.

 

[Chippy_boy]

You seem to follow the belief that the economy will work for some as long as many remain poor. You also seem oblivious to Tory borrowing.

What is this "Tory borrowing" of which you speak? The borrowing was about £180bn per annum when the Tories took over and they've managed to reduce it to a quarter of that. Deeper cuts would have eliminated it by now, but that would have been even more painful. Labour has objected to the level of cuts we've had already, so are in no position to criticize.

And regards your first point sentence, just no. I want *everyone* to be better off, as all Tories do. I just disagree with Labour about how best to achieve that. We do not achieve it by burdening the economy with too much tax to try to pay for services we could not yet afford.

 

[stonerblue]

That's Labour's problem. "For the many not the few" (with its echo of post Peterloo revolutionary fervour) doesn't work if too many consider themselves part of the few (and have no problem with vast disparity of wealth). Plus the Tories have done an awful lot of work to make sure the poor are kept on the move and don't vote, the bedroom tax, benefit cap, no housing benefit for young people.




So someone goes for a well paid, highly qualified job, then finds they are supposed to get it by becoming self employed by setting up their own company and "contracting" so the "employer" can avoid National Insurance. It beggars belief that people would prefer that sort of "choice" to a proper job under a benevolent employer (or at least one where the unions could negotiate some of that benevolence). You really have no idea of how much you now take for granted - all the
"Things like holiday/maternity/paternity/sick pay" - came about because of the unions. Trade Unions - the people that gave you the weekend.

As for rubbish lying uncollected in the 70s, just wow. A few places with mounds of rubbish for a few weeks. Unlike now, where thanks to the Tories' ideological austerity cuts to councils, uncollected rubbish is everywhere (maybe not in Surrey thanks to May's secret corrupt deal with the Tory council).

Thanks to council cuts there is more shit lying around my town now than there ever was in the 70's. Pong and undegradable.. tm.

 

[stonerblue]

Who would have thought it, MI5 opened a file on Jeremy Corbyn in the 90s due to his links to one of the IRA Balcombe Street gang who waged a murderous bombing campaign across south east England, they also opened a file on his links to the bomb maker who constructed the Regents Park and Hyde Park devices
Clearly a man to run the country, forward with Jeremy, For The Many, Not The Few

they also opened files on thatcher, foot, tebbit, trautman, la rue (danny), the clown off of 'the good old days' and that French bloke who mimes.

 

[Chippy_boy]

<<<Head in hands>>>.

What particular point do you disagree with Len? You seem to have completely forgotten the garbage we had to put up with when nationalised industries prevailed. Do you not remember when it used to take 3 months to get the GPO to install a phone line at your house? Do you not remember the Austin Allegro? Were you fond of the record levels of unemployment? The endless strikes? Happy days eh.

 

[urban genie]

Despite them wanting to renationalise industries and hand centralised monopoly power back to politicised twats such as the rail unions? Unions whose members are very comfortable, thank you very much, but who give not a diddly fcuk about customer service and will happily disrupt everyone in pursuit of their latest manufactured "cause". No thanks pal.

Was british rail famous for being on strike often? Cannot remember many in my lifetime, or are you lumping recent strikes and tube strikes in, bar the general strike in 1926 (before nationalisation) and the general strike of 78 I don't think it is something of a regular occurance.

I love how one year in 78-79 where unions apparently shut the country down is framed as something more than it was, like it was 10 years of action or something, Callahan fucked up fixing what was already a failed economy by previous tory and labour stratergy.
And yes there was the 72 and 74 miners strike and 76 grunwick dispute, but it's a nonsense to say renationaliseation equals strikes, we are having strikes now ffs because of the same issues, bad management.

 

[Hamann Pineapple]

What is this "Tory borrowing" of which you speak? The borrowing was about £180bn per annum when the Tories took over and they've managed to reduce it to a quarter of that. Deeper cuts would have eliminated it by now, but that would have been even more painful. Labour has objected to the level of cuts we've had already, so are in no position to criticize.

And regards your first point sentence, just no. I want *everyone* to be better off, as all Tories do. I just disagree with Labour about how best to achieve that. We do not achieve it by burdening the economy with too much tax to try to pay for services we could not yet afford.

Thankyou for your explanation, you have displayed your knowledge clearly.

 

[sir baconface]

The Thatcher years and policies did more to destroy UK manufacturing industry than Labour ever did - more closures and more jobs gone never to return under her time than any body elses. BAE Chadderton was functioning in about 2011 still wasn't it? That was when my Dad left I am sure...... was that under a Labour Govt?

She took assertive action on situations that had been swerved for years by weak politicians and limp-wristed managers. She took on tin-pot militants like Scargill on her own ground and reversed the millions of man hours lost every year to petty disputes. Yes, she was instrumental in closing down lame duck industries but this prepared the ground for radical new thinking: namely that industry and commerce actually needed to be competitive and customer responsive. These truths are taken for granted now. In her day they were heresy.

She fought vested interests and caused short term pain, which is why some hate her. In so doing, she jolted attitudes into the 20th century. That was the catalyst for a relatively prosperous Britain that was otherwise heading down the pan.

 

[sir baconface]

<<<Head in hands>>>.

Hah....best place for it. Strange how few want to return to those utopian days by voting your mates in.