Grenfell Tower block disaster

pirate said:
quite true, but this is an extraordinarily large number of people in a extraordinarily large number of properties where if there is a fire, Grenfell Tower shows and extraordinarily large numbers of people are likely to die.

Therefore I would argue this is an exceptional circumstance that needs an exceptional response
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iirc London Fire Brigade said they attend an average of 3 fires a day in tower blocks across the capitol so to suggest that any fire is likely to see such large numbers being so tragically killed is wrong. They where also at pains to remind everyone that their advice to stay in your flat remains as it is proven to be the safest place whilst they tend to any blaze that is normally confined to the flat it's broken out in.

Im not trying to be a smartass here or lessen the tragedy of grenfell but like a once in a lifetime hurricane or earthquake, this was a once in a lifetime blaze and yes, we have to learn from it and make people as safe as we possibly can but we cant become kneejerk and reactionary and we cant 100% make anyone safe, ever.
 
cleavers said:
Thanks, but I can't be bothered getting into a discussion with you, if you don't think being told at short notice, to go spend the night, maybe several nights, on a sports hall floor, with kids or elderly or disabled is a "nightmare" then you have a very different idea of "nightmare" to me. If I lived there in those circumstances, then I'd be wanting to stay where I was, until a proper solution was available, and not some stupid over reaction.
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as should be your choice, to risk a fiery death.
I dont think I would.

yes we do obviously have different view of nightmares.
 
1.618034 said:
How many spare fire crews do you really think there are in these times of austerity?

I'd put wardens on duty in each block until they are made safe.

In the meantime if you want to leave then you should be given that opportunity immediately. If you don't then I don't think you should be forced.
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Are you saying there aren't enough fire crews to spare 6 - one for each block. Stick one of those ready made portacabins there for a week if would even take that long. The service is stretched and I totally appreciate your point but surely for a week if it even takes that long you could station someone there rather than this uprooting. Offer overtime. Draft in those that manned the green godesses in the army. Qualified first aiders. One fireman from each county in the country.

The police are stretched but in Manchester i saw a greater presence after the arena incident than ever. Permanently stationed at various points. Would it be impossible to do similar rather than move people from their homes into leisure centres
 
johnmc said:
Are you saying there aren't enough fire crews to spare 6 - one for each block. Stick one of those ready made portacabins there for a week if would even take that long. The service is stretched and I totally appreciate your point but surely for a week if it even takes that long you could station someone there rather than this uprooting. Offer overtime. Draft in those that manned the green godesses in the army. Qualified first aiders. One fireman from each county in the country.

The police are stretched but in Manchester i saw a greater presence after the arena incident than ever. Permanently stationed at various points. Would it be impossible to do similar rather than move people from their homes into leisure centres
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possibly, but if you look at how quickly the fire took hold at grenfell and how much a single stationed crew could achieve, i am thinking moving people out might be the better option.
however i have to admit I am a layman and would happily follow the advice of professional firefighters and risk assesment professionals
 
pirate said:
possibly, but if you look at how quickly the fire took hold at grenfell and how much a single stationed crew could achieve, i am thinking moving people out might be the better option.
however i have to admit I am a layman and would happily follow the advice of professional firefighters and risk assesment professionals
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Apologies. I'm no expert. So forgive if I sound like I know what I'm talking about.

I thought that one of the main issues was fire services not being able to anywhere near the tower. So maybe a unit stationed on the blocks where there was a check and the access was also good. But agree the total safest option would be to get them out and that's what they have done. So ignore my ramblings.
 
Maybe. And I'm just throwing this out there. They have got wind of a terrorist group discussing how setting fire to one of these flawed / unsafe buildings would cause a huge loss of life.
We have seen how terror attacks have evolved from planted bombs to suicide bombers to driving vehicles at people.
Unfortunatly we are living in a world where anything is a target if a huge loss of life is the potential outcome.

I just find it strange to evacuate 800 homes on a Friday night in London. If they are just doing this due to the fire risk, then there could potentially be hundreds of tower blocks evacuated over the coming days.
 
This is arse covering on a grand scale. Whoever made this decision, be it the leader of Cambden Council or the fire service chief have looked at worse case scenario and decided they dont want a potential manslaughter charge against them.
I expect other councils to follow suit.
 
yeseye said:
This is arse covering on a grand scale. Whoever made this decision, be it the leader of Cambden Council or the fire service chief have looked at worse case scenario and decided they dont want a potential manslaughter charge against them.
I expect other councils to follow suit.
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Yes I suspect that todays Met press briefing saying they were looking at manslaughter could have concentrated minds.

Can't help but wonder if there is any political motivation behind this now too? Past ministers handling of things - Barwell - Pickles etc being questioned and tonight May's reaction being called into question too. She is looking like someone out of her depth and unable to get a handle on what's going on. The Brexit debacle this week too means that it one of the reluctant replacements is going to have to front up and challenge her
 
Gaylord du Bois said:
If it's anything other than political grandstanding then I'll eat our budgie. It just doesn't make sense.
If these buildings are that sensitive, have fire services posted until such time they're able to relocate people for the period required?
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Then again, if I had a possible manslaughter charge hanging over my head I'd want those people out
 
johnmc said:
Are you saying there aren't enough fire crews to spare 6 - one for each block. Stick one of those ready made portacabins there for a week if would even take that long. The service is stretched and I totally appreciate your point but surely for a week if it even takes that long you could station someone there rather than this uprooting. Offer overtime. Draft in those that manned the green godesses in the army. Qualified first aiders. One fireman from each county in the country.

The police are stretched but in Manchester i saw a greater presence after the arena incident than ever. Permanently stationed at various points. Would it be impossible to do similar rather than move people from their homes into leisure centres
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Yes I am. They need to be with their tenders in their stations for other/all calls.

Mate you saw a greater police presence because they were all on 12 hour days for a month! Stretched is understating it! My brother-in-law did 27 12 hour days straight. Then one day off and straight back on it. He's raking it in, but he's fucked. They all are. It's unsustainable.

Are you seriously advocating putting fire fighters in a portakabin for 12 hour shifts without a tender? What could they do other than call the fire brigade and start evacuating...? A group of wardens on each block would be just as useful and far more realistic.

The fire service have said that these blocks are unsafe for various reasons. What this council are doing is listening and acting. Something the government and Kensington council have not.

If I was in one of these blocks and discovered that it had this cladding and other issues, there are it seems more issues than just the cladding btw, then I would appreciate the offer of getting out for a few weeks while they sort it.

I actually thought it quite poignant that we got to see all those families walking out of those blocks tonight, compared to watching others burn last week.

Inconvenience or death? It's a tricky one.
 
1.618034 said:
Yes I am. They need to be with their tenders in their stations for other/all calls.

Mate you saw a greater police presence because they were all on 12 hour days for a month! Stretched is understating it! My brother-in-law did 27 12 hour days straight. Then one day off and straight back on it. He's raking it in, but he's fucked. They all are. It's unsustainable.

Are you seriously advocating putting fire fighters in a portakabin for 12 hour shifts without a tender? What could they do other than call the fire brigade and start evacuating...? A group of wardens on each block would be just as useful and far more realistic.

The fire service have said that these blocks are unsafe for various reasons. What this council are doing is listening and acting. Something the government and Kensington council have not.

If I was in one of these blocks and discovered that it had this cladding and other issues, there are it seems more issues than just the cladding btw, then I would appreciate the offer of getting out for a few weeks while they sort it.

I actually thought it quite poignant that we got to see all those families walking out of those blocks tonight, compared to watching others burn last week.

Inconvenience or death? It's a tricky one.
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Good point well made to be fair. Seen as a knee jerk reaction which it probably is but safety first.
 
SouthStandStander said:
Maybe. And I'm just throwing this out there. They have got wind of a terrorist group discussing how setting fire to one of these flawed / unsafe buildings would cause a huge loss of life.
We have seen how terror attacks have evolved from planted bombs to suicide bombers to driving vehicles at people.
Unfortunatly we are living in a world where anything is a target if a huge loss of life is the potential outcome.

I just find it strange to evacuate 800 homes on a Friday night in London. If they are just doing this due to the fire risk, then there could potentially be hundreds of tower blocks evacuated over the coming days.
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I've thought this too, the press have put it out there which blocks have the suspect classing so what's to stop a terrorist organisation identifying this?

Doesn't require the planning or manufacture of a bomb like Manchester did or even the renting of a van like London. They simply need to walk to a petrol station with a couple of Jerry Cans soak the one of the floors or an empty flat with Petrol and you have another Tinder box like Grenfell. This was an accident that killed 3-4 times as many as Manchester, so I wouldn't be surprised if a terrorist threat was identified. It's not something the Government would want to publicise either as it would cause mass hysteria amongst anyone living in a tower block.
 
Liz Kershaw on sky paper review scathing of Camden council, she went into Swiss Cottage leiure centre for a pee and they threw her out for talking to residents, said the elderly and the ill with pets have not been put into hotels as none in London will take them and they are squatting on matresses or on chairs and have been given a Danish pastry to eat, this is getting farcical, safety first must apply but some planning needs putting in place here
 
Xiphos said:
Liz Kershaw on sky paper review scathing of Camden council, she went into Swiss Cottage leiure centre for a pee and they threw her out for talking to residents, said the elderly and the ill with pets have not been put into hotels as none in London will take them and they are squatting on matresses or on chairs and have been given a Danish pastry to eat, this is getting farcical, safety first must apply but some planning needs putting in place here
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Course she just went for a pee.
 
Well all the council needed to do was put someone on each floor of those buildings on fire watch , there seems to be enough of Camden council employees in day glo jackets milling about. Maybe the head of Camden council who made this decision could do a a stint overnight ,it might give her time to really think thru a plan, all she has done is put her paper knickers on and cover her arse
 
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