Religion

all i was trying to say is let kids learn about life and learn skills in schools first and if they find religion later on in life when they can understand it better and they can see there is many other religions and not just yours, so brainwashing them when at a young age into thinking there is only one religion and dare you question others

the power of religion is scary and how do you handle it when your a young kid ?? its down to the teachers and the preachers and if somebody keeps preaching it to you over and over again then it becomes brainwashing kids into thinking that there religion is right and not the others, that why i think we have so much hurt with religion its the one religion your being teached is the right one

the good of god and peace on earth and good will to all gets brushed under the carpet, because you have never learnt about any other religion and when you find out there is another god and people who believe in another god are just like you don't like you dare you question there religion ?? why is that well its down to brainwashing at such a young age
 
ancoats said:
how about your kids taught about life and loving each other and respect with reading and maths and art and modern day skills anything other than religion

(Are you saying that religion is the cause of killing or a vehicle for it) when people stand and shout there Gods name and then blow themselves up am pretty sure that is proof enough and kill or ethnic cleansing is also proof it happens, ( what might be called truly rational thought) brainwashing at at young age is not education its cruel

Definition of ethnic cleansing. : the expulsion, imprisonment, or killing of an ethnicminority by a dominant majority in order to achieve ethnic homogeneity. See ethnic cleansing defined for English-language learners
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Just to go back to the killing thing - have you ever felt such pain that you want to attack and/or kill yourself or someone else? I haven't killed anyone else or myself - but sometimes I wonder quite how I didn't. And so I know this pain and how it can drive one to insanity. And yet there have been times where I felt touched by a Love within that is like a kind and gentle that helps to soothe and numb the pain. And I have cried - in part as the release of pain but also tears of feeling beautifully blessed, of gratitude for been able to feel this pain in way in which I don't react so as to hurt myself or anyone else. Crying is perhaps not what I was culturally brought up. Indeed I remember having a conversation year back with someone I knew in the military who spoke of needing to not cry if wanted to win a war. Even at that time something about this bugged me. And perhaps to a degree the were right a bout not crying so as to win a war and yet there are tears that can be shed that help one let go of the war within. These for me, come when I feel touched by Love. Though not christian when I read of Jesus' call of Eternal Life, for me it seems obvious that this speaks of the Love that I felt that is the essence of this eternal life...that help free one from the desires for death and open to the possibilities of a different kind of Life. Maybe this is what some would call salvation. But that seems like a different kind of God to that which you are defining, that others are insisting is the only way to relate with divinity. Is that not a form of violence - you must believe in a violent God or no God at all?
 
arfurclue said:
Just to go back to the killing thing - have you ever felt such pain that you want to attack and/or kill yourself or someone else? I haven't killed anyone else or myself - but sometimes I wonder quite how I didn't. And so I know this pain and how it can drive one to insanity. And yet there have been times where I felt touched by a Love within that is like a kind and gentle that helps to soothe and numb the pain. And I have cried - in part as the release of pain but also tears of feeling beautifully blessed, of gratitude for been able to feel this pain in way in which I don't react so as to hurt myself or anyone else. Crying is perhaps not what I was culturally brought up. Indeed I remember having a conversation year back with someone I knew in the military who spoke of needing to not cry if wanted to win a war. Even at that time something about this bugged me. And perhaps to a degree the were right a bout not crying so as to win a war and yet there are tears that can be shed that help one let go of the war within. These for me, come when I feel touched by Love. Though not christian when I read of Jesus' call of Eternal Life, for me it seems obvious that this speaks of the Love that I felt that is the essence of this eternal life...that help free one from the desires for death and open to the possibilities of a different kind of Life. Maybe this is what some would call salvation. But that seems like a different kind of God to that which you are defining, that others are insisting is the only way to relate with divinity. Is that not a form of violence - you must believe in a violent God or no God at all?
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i think you got me wrong ?? am not in anyway against any religion and respect all people believes whoever god maybe to them

its the teaching in schools that i real don't understand and to me it feels like brainwashing kids into thinking that there is only one god and the best god is teach at this school, why don't schools open its doors to everybody from any religion, my kids and grandkids went to a catholic school in ancoats and its a closed shop and only catholic are aloud to go and its like us vs them and your catholic end off
 
ancoats said:
i think you got me wrong ?? am not in anyway against any religion and respect all people believes whoever god maybe to them

its the teaching in schools that i real don't understand and to me it feels like brainwashing kids into thinking that there is only one god and the best god is teach at this school, why don't schools open its doors to everybody from any religion, my kids and grandkids went to a catholic school in ancoats and its a closed shop and only catholic are aloud to go and its like us vs them and your catholic end off
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Fair enough. And I can't much comment on Catholic school policies.

What I might say is that is that I like a quote attributed to Picasso that says 'art is lies that leads to truth.' Perhaps religion in its truest sense is an actually an art - like the idea quoted earlier of 'fingers pointing to the moon.' - the teachings are not so much the truth, rather that which points to the Light of Truth...the Love of the heart. Perhaps it would be fair to say that some teachings seem to point to Truth more than others. And, to jump back a touch -I'm not sure Picasso would have said that some folk not being able to paint so well is 'proof' that no-else could possibly be able to either.

Beyond that, for me, this conversation is starting up something like this. We might agree that there seems to be what we might call 'untrue' religion? Now perhaps the question is where to go from from here. Perhaps one can choose to reject all religion as 'evil' and instead go to a secularity in our minds and thus see ourselves as 'above' and 'safe' form religion and its practitioners. Or maybe we could ask ourselves whether there is something akin to 'true' religion - perhaps engaging in this religion so as to go beyond all religion and opening to Truth. Maybe with the latter one may come know to the freedom of Truly transcendent states of Being; with the former we might just come to believe - but not actually know - that we have transcended (though we might use a different term) religion - bit as for freedom I don't know...sometimes it feels like there are folk that come on this thread that say they are above religion but seem to gain all the enjoyment that would come from constantly headbutting a wall... then insisting it is others that are forcing them to do so.
 
ancoats said:
all i was trying to say is let kids learn about life and learn skills in schools first and if they find religion later on in life when they can understand it better and they can see there is many other religions and not just yours, so brainwashing them when at a young age into thinking there is only one religion and dare you question others

the power of religion is scary and how do you handle it when your a young kid ?? its down to the teachers and the preachers and if somebody keeps preaching it to you over and over again then it becomes brainwashing kids into thinking that there religion is right and not the others, that why i think we have so much hurt with religion its the one religion your being teached is the right one

the good of god and peace on earth and good will to all gets brushed under the carpet, because you have never learnt about any other religion and when you find out there is another god and people who believe in another god are just like you don't like you dare you question there religion ?? why is that well its down to brainwashing at such a young age
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I like these questions. And don't say I have all the answers.

My old martial arts teacher would not take on children as students and questioned the value of children going into shaolin monastaries at such an early age.

On the other hand, I have a children's book called 'A Handful of Quiet - Happiness in four pebbles' by Thich Nhat Hanh.
Roughly it is like a little meditation where one has four pebbles. Each pebble might represent something nature.
In one example it uses flower, mountain, calm water, space. Each of these might represent a quality of being.
So one might take a few moments, pick up each pebble one by one and see if one can come to feel the quality spoken of.
So perhaps then something like this could be used so that all that is learned is rooted in these qualities.
The other thing is that if one takes a moment to relax into 'presence' it can make receiving and understanding what is being taught
so much easier - and there can feel like a deeper connection/engagement.
So not so much a if you don't learn this you will be punished and go to hell' but a way of empowering kids and helping them to find
and express - to grow into - that which is the best for them.
Beyond that maybe it might be said that as we first remember simplicity, then it becomes easier to enjoy and understand the richness of complexity -
but without this root in simplicity, life comes to be found to be more and more complicated, a struggle even...which might then make the 'dumbed down' quite attractive? Peace
 
ps Some might say...that the simplicity of Being is a mystery to that mind which is invested in complication. Yet as as one is willing to let go of attachment to that mind, then one naturally opens to a state of being that can - but doesn't have to - be expressed, with a depth of complexity, that is way beyond that which can be achieved by the mind that insists on making life complicated. Who knows - maybe this is what some might call 'mastery?'
 
I have enjoyed reading your posts Arfur and also your calm balanced resposts to this most taxing of subject matter.Maybe through lack of intellectual capacity or a genuine difficulty of absorbing your reply's I find myself stumbling after the first few paragraphs and admit on occasion to being non the wiser but constantly and vigorously remind myself of Mathew 7.7-8 who procranstinated that if only we ask it shall be given and seek and ye shall find knock and it shall be opened unto you.As an addedrum I have been attempting to put a face and name to your posting style and your mention above of Shaolin monasteries has placed the final jigsaw piece firmly into place.The similarities of pen style to the great Kwai Chan Cain is remarkable and everything you say echoes his mantra and persona.The passage below is one of my favourites and I hope it further reinforces your own beliefs giving meaning to this sea of soup that we must paddle in.Here we have a religious thread that has not lost of it's way or fallen deep in that abyss of conflictual dross.Maybe our Moon has finally come of age and a so big well done to all contributors as we hurtle toward the 100 page mark.If we absorb as little as 1% of info tendered then are we not infiniatly wiser forour efforts.Take care pal and keep up the good work

From the Crane, we learn grace and self-control.
The Snake teaches us suppleness and rhythmic endurance.
The Praying Mantis teaches us speed and patience.
And from the Tiger, we learn tenacity and power.
And from the Dragon, we learn to ride the wind.
All creatures, the low and the high, are one with nature.
If we have the wisdom to learn, all may teach us their virtues.
 
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01cravend said:
A buffet for bacteria and insects or ashes that's the afterlife. Humans just cling to religion as an answer to the thought that we are special, we're not. Same thing happens to us as to that fly you swatted, you just die and fade to nothingness. You'll be a memory for a while that over time will dissipate like a fart in the wind. Then all that's left of our inconsequential exsistence is as a statistic stored on a computer somewhere.
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Spot on!
 
Elbow beards said:
So you do believe in santa then.
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Father Christmas, you mean?

Well, there is ACTUAL evidence of shamans in Siberia and of the Sami people in Nothern Scandinavia who ride reindeer led sleighs and hang magic mushrooms on pine trees to dry so they can be given out to local people on the Winter Solstice to cook with and get high. The reindeer also eat magic mushrooms and the shamans will drink the piss of the reindeer to also get high.

It’s said that when everyone is high on magic mushrooms it seems like the reindeer are flying as they tow the shaman and his sleigh.

So the tradition of celebrating Father Christmas actually has roots in reality. Almost every single thing in organised religions is made up bollocks.

I know which tradition I’ll carry on celebrating.
 
arfurclue said:
I like these questions. And don't say I have all the answers.

My old martial arts teacher would not take on children as students and questioned the value of children going into shaolin monastaries at such an early age.

On the other hand, I have a children's book called 'A Handful of Quiet - Happiness in four pebbles' by Thich Nhat Hanh.
Roughly it is like a little meditation where one has four pebbles. Each pebble might represent something nature.
In one example it uses flower, mountain, calm water, space. Each of these might represent a quality of being.
So one might take a few moments, pick up each pebble one by one and see if one can come to feel the quality spoken of.
So perhaps then something like this could be used so that all that is learned is rooted in these qualities.
The other thing is that if one takes a moment to relax into 'presence' it can make receiving and understanding what is being taught
so much easier - and there can feel like a deeper connection/engagement.
So not so much a if you don't learn this you will be punished and go to hell' but a way of empowering kids and helping them to find
and express - to grow into - that which is the best for them.
Beyond that maybe it might be said that as we first remember simplicity, then it becomes easier to enjoy and understand the richness of complexity -
but without this root in simplicity, life comes to be found to be more and more complicated, a struggle even...which might then make the 'dumbed down' quite attractive? Peace
Click to expand...

maybe the world could be a better place if we did not put pressure on our very young and demand so much from them in listen to what we preach, yes learning right from wrong is needed in life skills but you don't need to use religion as a key into there brains and they would not be able to understand or process it anyway when your told its the only way and the only god that ever live on this plant so it must be right in what we preach

for me anyway you have to find a God and religion and not the other way round, that way its your own choice and nobody else making it for you at a young age
 
ancoats said:
maybe the world could be a better place if we did not put pressure on our very young and demand so much from them in listen to what we preach, yes learning right from wrong is needed in life skills but you don't need to use religion as a key into there brains and they would not be able to understand or process it anyway when your told its the only way and the only god that ever live on this plant so it must be right in what we preach

for me anyway you have to find a God and religion and not the other way round, that way its your own choice and nobody else making it for you at a young age
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I am going to take more time to be with what you have written.Thank you. And yet, for me, even now this 'maybe the world could be a better place if we did not put pressure on our very young and demand so much from them in listen to what we preach' feels so, so important. How does a parent best relate with a child, how does an 'adult' treat a 'youth', how does a teacher educate a student? Maybe it not so much about the former being 'better' than the latter - telling them what is (according to their own conditioning) 'right' and what is 'wrong'. Maybe there is a more mutual relationship, in which each 'side' comes to deepen their own learning? Maybe if 'adults' could come to respect the essence of youth, then youths might not grow up with a need to disrespect adults - a situation in which each generation of adults comes to whinge and moan about 'how disrespectful are the youths these days?'
 
pps perhaps it might be said that there is a difference between being a master of football and opening to mastery through football. If this comes to be 'understood ' - then maybe if someone comes along with the tired old that 'the bible says a husband is meant to be a master of his wife'...then one might be able to suggest 'actually, it makes far more sense that the original meaning of this (before mistranslation) would be something like this : A husband can come to open to mastery though loving relationship with his wife: the wife,in loving relationship with her husband, can come to deeper open to the mysterious beauty, power and wisdom that is the Truth of her own Being.' To jump back a little bit, perhaps a player can learn to be a master of football but what happens then when they can no longer play? They lose everything? Yet if the mastery was something they learned through football then it might now be so hard to 'translate' this into a new field? In a similar way, maybe the average supporter of a football team does not have the required skill to be a master of football but, through supporting their team, they might be able to learn how to open to mastery, as expressed through their own, best suited, field?
 
Psychedelic Casual said:
Father Christmas, you mean?

Well, there is ACTUAL evidence of shamans in Siberia and of the Sami people in Nothern Scandinavia who ride reindeer led sleighs and hang magic mushrooms on pine trees to dry so they can be given out to local people on the Winter Solstice to cook with and get high. The reindeer also eat magic mushrooms and the shamans will drink the piss of the reindeer to also get high.

It’s said that when everyone is high on magic mushrooms it seems like the reindeer are flying as they tow the shaman and his sleigh.

So the tradition of celebrating Father Christmas actually has roots in reality. Almost every single thing in organised religions is made up bollocks.

I know which tradition I’ll carry on celebrating.
Click to expand...
You ever heard of Maria Sabina? She of the hongos? Might be suggested, by some, that she not advocate a way of using shrooms to 'find God' - more to become aware of - and let go of- fear born hallucinations and open to Truth which is beyond them. That which some might call Love...beyond books, beyond theories of Religion, beyond any idolatry of false perceptions? Life is 'fair' this way - each gets to find out what is true... for themself. Not everyone's cup of tea...might have to gamble one's entire life...to find what is or maybe not be..beyond this.

Anyhow...reindeer piss you mention? Erm, where might..a friend be able to buy this? ;-P
 
Two Gun Bob said:
I have enjoyed reading your posts Arfur and also your calm balanced resposts to this most taxing of subject matter.Maybe through lack of intellectual capacity or a genuine difficulty of absorbing your reply's I find myself stumbling after the first few paragraphs and admit on occasion to being non the wiser but constantly and vigorously remind myself of Mathew 7.7-8 who procranstinated that if only we ask it shall be given and seek and ye shall find knock and it shall be opened unto you.As an addedrum I have been attempting to put a face and name to your posting style and your mention above of Shaolin monasteries has placed the final jigsaw piece firmly into place.The similarities of pen style to the great Kwai Chan Cain is remarkable and everything you say echoes his mantra and persona.The passage below is one of my favourites and I hope it further reinforces your own beliefs giving meaning to this sea of soup that we must paddle in.Here we have a religious thread that has not lost of it's way or fallen deep in that abyss of conflictual dross.Maybe our Moon has finally come of age and a so big well done to all contributors as we hurtle toward the 100 page mark.If we absorb as little as 1% of info tendered then are we not infiniatly wiser forour efforts.Take care pal and keep up the good work

From the Crane, we learn grace and self-control.
The Snake teaches us suppleness and rhythmic endurance.
The Praying Mantis teaches us speed and patience.
And from the Tiger, we learn tenacity and power.
And from the Dragon, we learn to ride the wind.
All creatures, the low and the high, are one with nature.
If we have the wisdom to learn, all may teach us their virtues.
Click to expand...

seem to remember a certain mark twain saying the bible is full of lies

and this is probably the biggest of them
 
aguero93:20 said:
5 hour drive from Dublin on a bad day but if you get the train I'll pick you up in Killarney or Tralee. Preferably Tralee.
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Where do you live chief? If you haven’t been to Kerry, I’d go visit if I were you Magicpole, there’s a hell of a lot to see. Dingle in particular is the greatest little place in the world. Gods country, to bring it back to the religion thread.
Fly into Kerry, it’s a fucking ballache to get to from Dublin.
 
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