Are Labour a total shambles now as an opposition?

[bluethrunthru]

There's nothing I'd disagree with there but I did think the best way would be to cut off the supply of cheap labour but that's for another thread [emoji3]

clawing back benefits would remove the attractiveness of cheap labour - minimum wage is the floor - no-one gets paid less ( or shouldn't be ) and all those living here legally should be entitled to in work benefits which would then be clawed back from the employer. Theoretically that should place an equal cost on all potential employees where ever they are from Amazon or Starbucks don't give a fuck it you are British, Polish or Martian its just how little can they get away with paying you. Whether thats enough doesn't bother them as they know the welfare state will pick up their shortfall. I am pretty certain the welfare state was not implemented to supplement wages from low paying multi billion £ earning employers - its supposed to be a safety net for workers not employers. That is the kind of "fairness" I think Labour wishes to tackle.

 

[Bigga]

Which minimum wage jobs do you know of that aren't in the service sector?
Do you think Amazon, Starbucks, Burger King and Pret-a-Manger will be forced into financial difficulties through paying their staff 3 quid an hour more?
Paying their employees better wages reduces the need for tax credits and helps reduce government borrowing.

The guy doesn't want to absorb this thinking as it's quite logical to us, but 'naive' and 'cloud cuckoo land' for him.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Who are you as a person and what do you stand for?

Wait, that's rhetorical, I know...

Seriously, you haven't a clue.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Which minimum wage jobs do you know of that aren't in the service sector?
Do you think Amazon, Starbucks, Burger King and Pret-a-Manger will be forced into financial difficulties through paying their staff 3 quid an hour more?
Paying their employees better wages reduces the need for tax credits and helps reduce government borrowing.

Have a read of my post you quoted and then have a read of your reply.

 

[Bigga]

Seriously, you haven't a clue.

I haven't a clue, yet you're thesis on business having issues if they pay their staff better seem not to apply to Amazon!

Keenly ignored earlier in the post!!

There are around 5000 accredited companies that haven't tanked because of a living wage paid to its staff and this has only been recognised in the last couple of years.

Shouldn't that be zero through the fear of 'competition'?

You're laughably "intellectual".

 

[Chippy_boy]

I haven't a clue, yet you're thesis on business having issues if they pay their staff better seem not to apply to Amazon!

Keenly ignored earlier in the post!!

You haven't a clue at what I stand for.

And the comment above wasn't ignored you muppet. If you weren't so quick to jump in with criticism and read my post which he quoted, you'd see why.

But you know what, the thing that REALLY fucks me off about people like you is your claim to some sort of moral superiority. It completely escapes you that people like me want everyone to be better off. But that we differ about how it can actually be achieved.

No, in your dinosaur mind, Tories are evil bastards whose mission in life is to fuck people over. It's pathetic quite honestly. It's the politics of children.

I don't have such loathing for anyone, not even Corbyn. I think he's an idiot and pretty unprincipled, but in his own silly way, he probably believes that he's trying to do good. And yet your lot seem to think Tories are the fucking antichrist. Grow up.

You're laughably "intellectual".

And you're just laughable. Merry Christmas anyway.

 

[Bigga]

You haven't a clue at what I stand for.

And the comment above wasn't ignored you muppet. If you weren't so quick to jump in with criticism and read my post which he quoted, you'd see why.

But you know what, the thing that REALLY fucks me off about people like you is your claim to some sort of moral superiority. It completely escapes you that people like me want everyone to be better off. But that we differ about how it can actually be achieved.

No, in your dinosaur mind, Tories are evil bastards whose mission in life is to fuck people over. It's pathetic quite honestly. It's the politics of children.

I don't have such loathing for anyone, not even Corbyn. I think he's an idiot and pretty unprincipled, but in his own silly way, he probably believes that he's trying to do good. And yet your lot seem to think Tories are the fucking antichrist. Grow up.

"Muppet"? Triggered much...??

Let's highlight your hypocrisy first:

"...your claim to some sort of moral superiority"

It's pathetic quite honestly. It's the politics of children

I don't have such loathing for anyone, not even Corbyn. I think he's an idiot and pretty unprincipled

Astonishing that that can happen within a few sentences.

Let me just correct you on your notion on how we can achieve the level where we're all 'better off'; you've said FUCK ALL ON IT!!

All you've done is shot everyone else down, but you want us to be 'competitive' in the employment market.

Come on, genius, how do you qualify your points??

Show us where governments get the balance right for their countries and why the UK haven't done that yet.

Be that patronising adult in the room...

 

[inbetween]

As most low paid jobs are in the service sectors; what economic impact do you think will result if they are paid £10/hour rather than minimum wage?

Not much because most people working in the service sector aren't paid the minimum wage. My mum works in a supermarket and she earns £9/hr so £10/hr will barely make any difference.

The biggest thing for many service workers (restaurants) in other countries is things like tips but we as a country rather bizarrely do not have a tipping culture. I think for many people they would rather get bad service than have to tip someone.

The biggest way to give someone a pay-rise is to go out and spend your money in the shops, restaurants etc but we as a society are increasingly tightening up on how we spend.

 

[Chippy_boy]

"Muppet"? Triggered much...??

Let's highlight your hypocrisy first:







Astonishing that that can happen within a few sentences.

Let me just correct you on your notion on how we can achieve the level where we're all 'better off'; you've said FUCK ALL ON IT!!

All you've done is shot everyone else down, but you want us to be 'competitive' in the employment market.

Come on, genius, how do you qualify your points??

Show us where governments get the balance right for their countries and why the UK haven't done that yet.

Be that patronising adult in the room...

No thanks I'm terminally bored with you. Chalk this up as a win if it pleases you. Bye.

 

[Bigga]

No thanks I'm terminally bored with you. Chalk this up as a win if it pleases you. Bye.

It IS a 'win' like it or not.

It was asked how YOU propose we move forward and you cannot.

Cheers dude for proving my point on your intellectual deficit on the matter.

 

[RabidCity]

Which minimum wage jobs do you know of that aren't in the service sector?
Do you think Amazon, Starbucks, Burger King and Pret-a-Manger will be forced into financial difficulties through paying their staff 3 quid an hour more?
Paying their employees better wages reduces the need for tax credits and helps reduce government borrowing.

It's not £3 though is it and you're not looking at this with a business head.

£3 for the lowest paid workers (plus employers NIC, increased pension contributions etc etc) then lowers the gap to the next tier, which has to be maintained or it's not financially disparate to represent the additional responsibility. Basically these costs steamroll - it's ends up not viable. I understand your point that these companies can afford it, but what shareholder/owner would back that decision with their own money when they will get little direct return as a result, plus make themselves less competitive than the other companies.

As for your point about reducing government borrowing -that's a bit disingenuous too. Higher wages will reduce corporation tax - so it's not really as simple as saying it will be a financial benefit.

 

[mancityvstoke]

Yes they are

 

[Chippy_boy]

It's not £3 though is it and you're not looking at this with a business head.

£3 for the lowest paid workers (plus employers NIC, increased pension contributions etc etc) then lowers the gap to the next tier, which has to be maintained or it's not financially disparate to represent the additional responsibility. Basically these costs steamroll - it's ends up not viable. I understand your point that these companies can afford it, but what shareholder/owner would back that decision with their own money when they will get little direct return as a result, plus make themselves less competitive than the other companies.

As for your point about reducing government borrowing -that's a bit disingenuous too. Higher wages will reduce corporation tax - so it's not really as simple as saying it will be a financial benefit.

VOICE

OF

REASON

Thank God there's someone on the forum who sees sense!

 

[hilts]

I think some need to look at job sites if they think it’s only service industries that are on low wages. I asked several months back how labour would implement £10 minimum wage and none of the fairytale followers could answer. It’s a general problem with the momentum movement, big on promises but fuck all in the way of detail.

 

[Magicpole]

Corbyn has been hogtied because he is a Brexiteer. Labour’s management of their opposition to the Tories in this utter farce, sees him less popular than May.

That shows you how much he has missed an opportunity. The Labour Party up here are finished. Keep their current ineptitude up and my prediction of continuous Tory governments is well on course.

Even if the do win power post Corbyn, it will be a watered down Tory party more interested in gaining power than change.

It’s like being forced to eat a shit sandwhich, but you can choose the type of bread.

 

[Jalfraag]

It's not £3 though is it and you're not looking at this with a business head.

£3 for the lowest paid workers (plus employers NIC, increased pension contributions etc etc) then lowers the gap to the next tier, which has to be maintained or it's not financially disparate to represent the additional responsibility. Basically these costs steamroll - it's ends up not viable. I understand your point that these companies can afford it, but what shareholder/owner would back that decision with their own money when they will get little direct return as a result, plus make themselves less competitive than the other companies.

As for your point about reducing government borrowing -that's a bit disingenuous too. Higher wages will reduce corporation tax - so it's not really as simple as saying it will be a financial benefit.

Amazon, Starbucks and most of the multinationals pay a negligible amount of corporation tax.

 

[ganganvince]

Which minimum wage jobs do you know of that aren't in the service sector?
Do you think Amazon, Starbucks, Burger King and Pret-a-Manger will be forced into financial difficulties through paying their staff 3 quid an hour more?
Paying their employees better wages reduces the need for tax credits and helps reduce government borrowing.

No but the Royal Oak, Kings Arms, Joes Cafe, Daves chippy etc etc will all struggle

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

Which minimum wage jobs do you know of that aren't in the service sector?
Do you think Amazon, Starbucks, Burger King and Pret-a-Manger will be forced into financial difficulties through paying their staff 3 quid an hour more?
Paying their employees better wages reduces the need for tax credits and helps reduce government borrowing.

Apparently Wetherspoons would go under without the welfare system (paid for by me and you) thats supports their staff ..... enabling the owner to trouser millions in dividends and profits .... at least fair play he pays his taxes

 

[2sheikhs]

Apparently Wetherspoons would go under without the welfare system (paid for by me and you) thats supports their customers ..... enabling the owner to trouser millions in dividends and profits .... at least fair play he pays his taxes

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

Anything to stop what I believe to be economic self harm yeah.

This Brexit isn’t the Brexit that was on the tin.

The only thing I think was on the tin was the word 'Leave'! No instructions - so we didn't know what the contents of the tin were good for? And the instructions on the other tin weren't too palatable to what turned out to be a wafer but a majority!