Var debate 2019/20

[Dribble]

FIFA have it on their website. It is the moment the ball is touched or played so point 2.

https://www.fifa.com/mm/document/afdeveloping/refereeing/law_11_offside_en_47383.pdf

And this was the point Andy Gray was making. At 25 fps, it's impossible to have every single action available to determine accurately a ball being touch or leaving a boot.

BEIN Sports illustrated this perfectly by showing that both the first touch, & the ball leaving the boot protocols must have been used to determine Sterling's second goal & Jesus' goal which was ruled out. If the protocols were the same (first touch), the goal from Jesus would have stood.

It's early days for VAR, but this needs to be sorted. The correct decision on Saturday would have meant a 0-6 win, so unless goal difference becomes an issue, it won't have a major effect.

But just imagine if the goal from Jesus which was ruled out, cost us two points & was the difference between winning the league by a point, or losing it by a point?

I suppose mistakes like this have always characterised football, but isn't VAR here to help eliminate these errors?

 

[SWP's back]

@cleavers I can't watch the BT coverage as my dodgy box's playback isn't working.

I watched this video that pingu posted:



If it doesn't play, go on youtube and it's the first video after searching: Video Assistant Referee (VAR): The Virtual Offside Line

It's very good for explaining what I mean about locating the correct pixel in 3D space etc (rather than the blue parallel lines that were used in the last year's world cup etc), but it would seem that at present, it is still a technician that is clicking the pixel to determine the first body part that can be offside (as opposed to AI as AI can't seemingly decide where the arms ends and shoulder begins as an example).

In terms of what I was talking re: the lines being drawn, watch on the video from 3:57 to 4:01 ish and that is exactly what I saw happening on screen during the Sterling review. I was then as shocked as anyone that the defender's arse was playing him onside but that's the reason that the system exists (i.e. to show where in space every body actually is rather than trying to determine it using one's eye and a camera angle not quite in line.)

 

[SWP's back]

At 25 fps, it's impossible to have every single action available to determine accurately a ball being touch or leaving a boot.

You may have seen that I've mentioned but Andy Gray is wrong on how many FPS football is recorded in. I don't know what the VAR get but anyone at home watching on SkyQ is getting 50 FPS.

 

[blueinsa]

Hawkeye in cricket and tennis is immediate and 100% technological solution.

Var is 60-90 seconds if not more which leads me to think its very much human influenced.

If i am wrong then just tell us what the tech is that is being used with working examples.

Is that too much to ask to put this debate to bed?

 

[Rammy Blue]

You may have seen that I've mentioned but Andy Gray is wrong on how many FPS football is recorded in. I don't know what the VAR get but anyone at home watching on SkyQ is getting 50 FPS.

Out of interest mate, is every game covered in Ultra though?

 

[BlueHammer85]

why are we expecting machine level accuracy from a human sport, watched and played by..... humans. Why can't we have fallible human officiating. The sport has lasted this long without it.

The increasing mechanisation of the world....

There is an inherent beauty in imperfection in and of itself.

Because no one called it ‘fallible human officiating ‘ they called it ‘the refs a cheating c*nt and is corrupt’

 

[SWP's back]

Out of interest mate, is every game covered in Ultra though?

I'm would assume they have the cameras at every game mate. The whole reason VAR is only at PL grounds and not others is because of the cost of the equipment so I presume they are just left in place at the grounds now.

 

[SWP's back]

Because no one called it ‘fallible human officiating ‘ they called it ‘the refs a cheating c*nt and is corrupt’

I've never known such a reversal of opinion as this, for literally a decade the forum has pissed and moaned that everything was bent in favour of certain clubs and wanted VAR as a way to stop it, now it's in place (and hasn't done anything so far to favour to certain clubs) then they don't like it.

 

[BlueHammer85]

I've never known such a reversal of opinion as this, for literally a decade the forum has pissed and moaned that everything was bent in favour of certain clubs and wanted VAR as a way to stop it, now it's in place (and hasn't done anything so far to favour to certain clubs) then they don't like it.

Exactly , I’d be more than happy to scrap VAR if it meant fans gave the benefit of doubt to officials but they wouldn’t ever.

 

[Dribble]

You may have seen that I've mentioned but Andy Gray is wrong on how many FPS football is recorded in. I don't know what the VAR get but anyone at home watching on SkyQ is getting 50 FPS.

Super slow motion on my phone is 960 fps which makes the file massive. For broadcast purposes 50 fps takes up massive bandwidth & is better that 25 fps, but even then, actions will be missed as one frame jumps to another.

The current world best is 10 million fps. Obviously that would be overkill & impossible, but I can see a point where two cameras are used side by side. One 50 fps for broadcast, & one 5000 fps fibre optic feed for VAR.

The FIFA guidelines also state that offside is determined from "The moment touches, or is played by one of his team mates". Touching & playing are two different things in my mind. There should be one rule.... Touch.

So back to BEIN Sport. In my mind they correctly pointed out that the ruled out goal was judged from the ball leaving Silva's foot, & not the moment Silva first touched the ball.

However, there's a grey area. Suppose Silva received the ball when Sterling was onside, but scooped it over into Sterling's path when he'd ran offside, what then? Is the ball judged when Silva first touched it (Sterling onside)? Or is it judged when the ball leaves Silva's foot (Sterling offside)?

 

[SWP's back]

Super slow motion on my phone is 960 fps which makes the file massive. For broadcast purposes 50 fps takes up massive bandwidth & is better that 25 fps, but even then, actions will be missed as one frame jumps to another.

The current world best is 10 million fps. Obviously that would be overkill & impossible, but I can see a point where two cameras are used side by side. One 50 fps for broadcast, & one 5000 fps fibre optic feed for VAR.

The FIFA guidelines also state that offside is determined from "The moment touches, or is played by one of his team mates". Touching & playing are two different things in my mind. There should be one rule.... Touch.

So back to BEIN Sport. In my mind they correctly pointed out that the ruled out goal was judged from the ball leaving Silva's foot, & not the moment Silva first touched the ball.

However, there's a grey area. Suppose Silva received the ball when Sterling was onside, but scooped it over into Sterling's path when he'd ran offside, what then? Is the ball judged when Silva first touched it (Sterling onside)? Or is it judged when the ball leaves Silva's foot (Sterling offside)?

According to FIFA, in your example it should be when Silva makes contact with the ball as it should have been on Saturday.

I agree with Andy Gray about which frame they use being a major issue, just not about how many FPS Sky/BT etc use.

 

[Heisenberg's Blue Sky]

I've never known such a reversal of opinion as this, for literally a decade the forum has pissed and moaned that everything was bent in favour of certain clubs and wanted VAR as a way to stop it, now it's in place (and hasn't done anything so far to favour to certain clubs) then they don't like it.

Steady on fella. Not everyone. And people are allowed to reverse an opinion based on new evidence and facts (hence it being an opinion), the length between one opinion and a reversal is fuckin irrelevant if based on new information. If one was to look back at my post history they'll be rarely if any mention of VAR as I wanted to see hownit would play out in the PL. Now that I have, its fuckin shit. Now I may reverse my opinion based on new evidence and that is the right of everyone on this forum. ;)

 

[bobmcfc]

I’m all good with it as long as every 1mm offside goal is chalked off for every team and every handball that results in a goal gets called.

I want it consistently applied so it’s fair .

 

[blueinsa]

I’m all good with it as long as every 1mm offside goal is chalked off for every team and every handball that results in a goal gets called.

I want it consistently applied so it’s fair .

As you say the proof will be very much in the eating but in my opinion they got both of yesterdays wrong in that Sterling was on for the Jesus goal, off for his own and the point at which the frame is took for the decision certainly debatable.

That debate allows goals to be given when they have previously been denied imo and it will be interesting to see who if anyone and that could well be us wins or loses by it.

 

[bobmcfc]

As you say the proof will be very much in the eating but in my opinion they got both of yesterdays wrong in that Sterling was on for the Jesus goal, off for his own and the point at which the frame is took for the decision certainly debatable.

That debate allows goals to be given when they have previously been denied imo and it will be interesting to see who if anyone and that could well be us wins or loses by it.

I agree the sterling one was ridiculous but if that’s the standard they are setting then it should apply for Liverpool, spurs , United etc. No moving the goalposts now because people are moaning or it’s affected their precious team.

The bench mark it set.

 

[SWP's back]

Steady on fella. Not everyone. And people are allowed to reverse an opinion based on new evidence and facts (hence it being an opinion), the length between one opinion and a reversal is fuckin irrelevant if based on new information. If one was to look back at my post history they'll be rarely if any mention of VAR as I wanted to see hownit would play out in the PL. Now that I have, its fuckin shit. Now I may reverse my opinion based on new evidence and that is the right of everyone on this forum. ;)

So despite the new evidence showing it’s not going to miss big offsides (unlike the previous tried and tested system), you prefer the old way?

 

[SWP's back]

As you say the proof will be very much in the eating but in my opinion they got both of yesterdays wrong in that Sterling was on for the Jesus goal, off for his own and the point at which the frame is took for the decision certainly debatable.

That debate allows goals to be given when they have previously been denied imo and it will be interesting to see who if anyone and that could well be us wins or loses by it.

But Sterling quite categorically wasn’t offside for his goal as we can see.

 

[SWP's back]

I agree the sterling one was ridiculous but if that’s the standard they are setting then it should apply for Liverpool, spurs , United etc. No moving the goalposts now because people are moaning or it’s affected their precious team.

The bench mark it set.

I don’t know why you would think it wouldn’t apply to them?

 

[BlueRain]

As far as I know the offside system is now computerised so takes it out of "human" hands, it's simply a yes or no decision from a computer...Or at least a computer works out the lines on the screen which we all see and if that's the case then I'm fine with it, it will get applied equally and fairly...
I'm really not a fan of VAR at all - I actually liked the dodgy decisions if truth be told... We've had some howlers against us in the past but we've had some go our way too, it's now one less thing to moan about... although reading through this thread I'm not so sure now :)

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

I’m all good with it as long as every 1mm offside goal is chalked off for every team and every handball that results in a goal gets called.

I want it consistently applied so it’s fair .

Don't be holding yer breath while yer wait, bob. This is what technology has delivered in other sports that have been using it but football has to deliver what the brand and its tv subscribers want. Encroachment at penalties has been going on for decades and fuck all done about it. Even last year it was ignored. I cannot recall one penalty being retaken at The Etihad because someone encroached within ten yards of the kicker, and yer never needed technology to spot it - the lino should have been perfectly placed to adjudicate! I suspect that the PL will spend every week of this season modifying it's use so that fans can legitimately ask "Whaaaat the fuck is goin' on?"