Var debate 2019/20

blueinsa said:
You need to ask?
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Of course not, but Shirley that is last seasons narrative. We spent a great deal of time on Saturday agonisingly watching dean & co desperately trying to PROVE our goals were illegal. Indeed dean was touching his shoulder frantically for ages after the man in a van had projected a subjective downward lines. We then learned that any part of your body that can legally score a goal is the criteria for offside. OK look at the still on the last page & rashfords big head is in front.

Someone has said it was checked OK where is the downward line & any other necessary evidence ?
 
I held the view for some time now that the offside law needs amending; especially with the advent of VAR.

The whole point of the offside law was to prevent goal-hanging.

Goals like the one Gabby scored on Saturday and the one Sterling scored against Spurs did not involve City gaining any advantage from a player being fractionally offside. Both goals were instances of City getting the better of their opponents through good play and should not be getting chalked off.

Nothing to do with offside but that Wolves goal getting chalked off was ridiculous too. I fully support the idea that you should not be able to put the ball into the net with any part of your arm (below the shoulder) regardless of intent but that wasn't what happened; unlike the goal Wolves scored at home to us last season.

I still remain fundamentally opposed to VAR on the grounds that waiting to see if you can celebrate a goal is utter nonsense.
 
Aytoun said:
Of course not, but Shirley that is last seasons narrative. We spent a great deal of time on Saturday agonisingly watching dean & co desperately trying to PROVE our goals were illegal. Indeed dean was touching his shoulder frantically for ages after the man in a van had projected a subjective downward lines. We then learned that any part of your body that can legally score a goal is the criteria for offside. OK look at the still on the last page & rashfords big head is in front.

Someone has said it was checked OK where is the downward line & any other necessary evidence ?
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It is onside. I took that image quickly. Don't take it as definitive. I had problems working out when Pogba made the pass. When does it leave his foot, or when does he first strike it. VAR are apparently using when they first strike it, but you could argue they should not. It's actually mich easier to work out when a player's foor strikes the ball, than when the ball leaves the foot because of the relative velocity of foot and ball before during and after the act of kicking a ball.

I am pleased to hear that VAR and the rules of offside are to be reviewed. That is excellent. Of course the outcome is as yet unknown.
 
OB1 said:
I held the view for some time now that the offside law needs amending; especially with the advent of VAR.

The whole point of the offside law was to prevent goal-hanging.

Goals like the one Gabby scored on Saturday and the one Sterling scored against Spurs did not involve City gaining any advantage from a player being fractionally offside. Both goals were instances of City getting the better of their opponents through good play and should not be getting chalked off.

Nothing to do with offside but that Wolves goal getting chalked off was ridiculous too. I fully support the idea that you should not be able to put the ball into the net with any part of your arm (below the shoulder) regardless of intent but that wasn't what happened; unlike the goal Wolves scored at home to us last season.

I still remain fundamentally opposed to VAR on the grounds that waiting to see if you can celebrate a goal is utter nonsense.
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Yes. It's all probably good entertainment if you're neutral, but if you're supporting one side or another it's crazy. Even if VAR does not get involved, every time we score now I look to the ref, and wait. Is he getting a message? I watched the game on BT Sport. I heard that celebrations of a glorious Sterling goal (the lob) were muted because many blues thought it would be ruled out because of VAR. Very sad. It damages enjoyment of fans at the game and introduces an added layer of complexity.

I am in favour of a VAR that works accurately and quickly. The sooner that happens the better. Probably 4-5 seasons off yet. This effort is premature.
 
BlueHammer85 said:
but the 'old system' had far far more goals disallowed which they shouldn't have been
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This system is probably more accurate than a human in the moment, but if it's made 2 minutes later it's no good. Football is about instant reaction and feeling the ebb and flow of the game. Perhaps a little less than when the crowd moved like a metronome inline with the game but still our emotions and heads are still attuned to the game we just watch more as individuals now than when once part of a crowd. Still it messes it up totally if you celebrate a goal and then see it ruled out.

We got to some very very interesting moments last season eg City's goal that was ruled out in the last moment of the Champions League Q/F. Imagine if Spurs winner in the semi-final had fallen. It is only a matter of time before a high profile final descends into farce. Unfortunately those who are implementing this have invested too much in it to pull it now, but I am pretty confident that in time it will change. For a start technology will improve. And it is in football's interest to remain credible. There will be parts of FIFA who will hold their hands up in horror. It's already happening. VAR in its current form will not last. It fell on Day 1, but it's like the tree that falls in a forest with no one there to hear it. The ramifications will take time to work out.
 
Until they can get round the fact that at 25 camera frames per second, the margin of error can be up to about a foot, they need to think again about using it for millimetre margins.

Thinking about it, the margin of error is going to be proportional to the closing speed of the attacker and defender and it should not be impossible to allow for that error in the calculation.
 
There should be a range in which VAR will not judge offside or not. Sterling's goal was such a case. Move the spot on his shoulder 1 cm and he is no longer offside, use 1 picture frame earlier and he is no longer offside.
 
Aytoun said:
Of course not, but Shirley that is last seasons narrative. We spent a great deal of time on Saturday agonisingly watching dean & co desperately trying to PROVE our goals were illegal. Indeed dean was touching his shoulder frantically for ages after the man in a van had projected a subjective downward lines. We then learned that any part of your body that can legally score a goal is the criteria for offside. OK look at the still on the last page & rashfords big head is in front.

Someone has said it was checked OK where is the downward line & any other necessary evidence ?
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ALL goals are VAR checked.

Not all goals will have offside calls. The Rashford goal wasn't close to being offside, therefore no lines were deemed necessary.
 
west didsblue said:
Until they can get round the fact that at 25 camera frames per second, the margin of error can be up to about a foot, they need to think again about using it for millimetre margins.

Thinking about it, the margin of error is going to be proportional to the closing speed of the attacker and defender and it should not be impossible to allow for that error in the calculation.
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This is my first google result of measurement error. https://www.statisticshowto.datasciencecentral.com/measurement-error/

It relates to measurements in general, rulers etc. Think about a plastic ruler with a 1 mm marks. What is your level of precision? 0.5mm. You cannot with confidence make an measurement more precisely than that with a ruler. Take the same principle and apply it to video-editing two actions: striking a ball and measuring distance between defender and forward. It's going to be complex, and there has to be a margin where VAR can not be confident in its call, and therefore FIFA, or whoever rules in these matters, is logically going to have to change the rules.

I am very pleased that people in football are reacting to what they are seeing, and quickly. This is to their credit.

To be fair, the VAR system may well have some positives but they should be open. When Stones saved the world from a Liverpool title win, they showed us the proof. Notably the calls re West Ham have not been shown properly. There have been images, but then they haven't proven that they were captured at the moment the ball was played (whatever that means). And they wont because I believe it makes all the difference.

VAR is not dead. But the offside law is. Only a matter of time now. I reckon VAR will evolve. They'll probably bring in some restrictions and guidelines on what it should be used for.
 
mexico1970 said:
Doesn't anyone else feel that a little bit of soul has been taken out of the game? The human element of the ref was a big talking point and that's gone.
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Yeah, probably, but the moment the narrative changed to managers screaming abuse at the officials in the press, the advent of social media for fans to do the same, and technology to reduce human errors, there was only one path that we were all going down.
 
mexico1970 said:
Doesn't anyone else feel that a little bit of soul has been taken out of the game? The human element of the ref was a big talking point and that's gone.
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Yes ref and his officials were part of the game. Now they are undermined. Some other refs are making his decisions but we don't see them.
 
Alan Harper's Tash said:
Yeah, probably, but the moment the narrative changed to managers screaming abuse at the officials in the press, the advent of social media for fans to do the same, and technology to reduce human errors, there was only one path that we were all going down.
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We should go the whole Hog and use drones sack all the human officials and have the police arrest players on the pitch if they are guilty of an offense, if the refs were being fired off VAR would have died like it should have done.
 
Aytoun said:
Of course not, but Shirley that is last seasons narrative. We spent a great deal of time on Saturday agonisingly watching dean & co desperately trying to PROVE our goals were illegal. Indeed dean was touching his shoulder frantically for ages after the man in a van had projected a subjective downward lines. We then learned that any part of your body that can legally score a goal is the criteria for offside. OK look at the still on the last page & rashfords big head is in front.

Someone has said it was checked OK where is the downward line & any other necessary evidence ?
Click to expand...

Note richardtheref on here who is fully qualified is quite clear that the laws says that the top of the arm/shoulder is handball and that it shouldn’t have been used for the offside call.
 
As a small aside, have you noticed the roles of Duncan Castles and Martyn Ziegler

DC quickly realised the problem with VAR and offside, whilst Ziegler broke the story about rulemaker's disquiet with VAR and offside rule

We have strange and unusual allies for once. In reality this is not a City story of course. It feels like one because we have been at the centre of VAR disputes but that is just coincidence (I think!).
 
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