Another new Brexit thread

[mcfc1632]

HOW CAN WE BE LOCKED INTO AN UNFETTERED BACKSTOP, IF THERE ARE SUCCESSFUL NEGOTIATIONS ON THE IRISH BORDER WHICH MEANS AN END TO THE BACKSTOP AND THEREFORE NO BACKSTOP IN EXISTENCE, TO BE LOCKED INTO ?

PLEASE EXPLAIN THIS TO ME, BECAUSE ONE OF US IS MONUMENTALLY FUCKING STUPID BEYOND ALL REASON.

Re your last sentence, I would suggest that your very many ill-thought through and abusive posts established your credentials a long time ago.

Re the earlier parts of your post:

"HOW CAN WE BE LOCKED INTO AN UNFETTERED BACKSTOP.." erm - that would be because the WA - if we are stupid enough to sign it - will have committed us to enter into the backstop and we would not be able to exit the backstop unless and until we secured the agreement of the EU that something totally undefined and unachievable has been achieved.

This means that they can unilaterally decide to keep us locked into a regime in which they have full control over our key economic and trading policies.

This is the hard reality - that we would have no control - that they would have total control.
That we get no capability to determine our policies - they get full control over dictating our policies to us........

", ......IF THERE ARE SUCCESSFUL NEGOTIATIONS ON THE IRISH BORDER WHICH MEANS AN END TO THE BACKSTOP AND THEREFORE NO BACKSTOP IN EXISTENCE, TO BE LOCKED INTO .."

There will not/maybe never will be successful negotiations on the Irish border if the backstop remains unfettered - what are these negotiations to which you refer - how will they take place and conclude??

There is not any ambition or motivation for the EU to alter the position in which they can exercise full fiscal, economic and trading controls over the risk presented by an independent nation just offshore from their borders - why would they, given there is enormous ambition and motivation to keep the UK fettered under their control.

There is no definition of what is acceptable change - beyond 'no infrastructure on or near the border' - or 'the border must be fully invisible'. These are utterly bland and unachievable definitions and can and will be used to ensure that there is never any agreement and therefore the UK remains locked into the backstop regime and its controls - entirely at the EU's discretion.

The backstop must be fettered either by time or pre-determined criteria which describes a 'minimum viable border' which is achievable and the achievement of which the UK can control or can be independently arbitrated

 

[ROCKET80]

Democracy is about choice and often making mistakes but you only hope you dont make them and when you do, try and learn from them.

There are different forms of democracy, it's generally built on the assumption that the public are well informed, not misinformed, lied to or manipulated.

What it isnt is 650 telling over 37 million they dont like the choice they made and that they know better, after all its us that put those 650 into parliament and can change them if we feel they are not representing us as we wish.

Im not wedded to brexit despite these threads and can see why many if not all think I am but i am wedded to our democracy and the promise parliament made to the electorate and that was to respect the result and ensure that no matter what that result was they would honour it.

Said it before and will again, i voted to leave but had remain won and parliament then said fuck it we are leaving anyway i would have been as vocal as i am now that the result had to be respected and that we have to remain, its that important as far as i am concerned.

It isnt about winning, its about our democracy and it will survive a bad mistake, fuck we make them all the time but it wont survive votes suddenly being ignored because a political elite didnt like the result.

You say you are not wedded to Brexit but to democracy. What democracy are you wedded to?

There are different forms of democracy, most of which are generally built on the assumption that the public are well informed, not misinformed, lied to or manipulated (perhaps I'm naïve in this). Also democracy can be knowing you've made a mistake and taking steps to rectify it as quickly as possible without having to suffer the full consequences.

Britain is a parliamentary democracy and it is trying to enact a result via direct democracy and that result means different things to different people. A parliamentary democracy carrying out the wish of a direct democratic result knowing it's bad for the country and it's people is insane and completely at odds with it's role is it not?
That is not democracy, it's a clusterfuck and mainly due to the referendum question being completely flawed.

For an example of how a referendum should be ran look at NZ and the flag referendum a few years ago. Designs for a new flag were presented to the public who voted for their favourite, the winner then went head to head with the current flag. Everyone knew what they were voting for.
It wasn't just a yes no question with yes winning and then ending up with the flag bearing a picture of Greg and Trevor Chappell's arseholes (a reference for cricket lovers) and the campaigners for change saying "well you knew what you were voting for".

It might not be palatable for some on here but Labour's stance on this is the best on offer. Negotiate a deal first then put this to the electorate who are then well informed on what leaving the EU entails and it goes up against Remain. This is the only reasonable way out of this madness.

If you really are for democracy then this is surely the option you'd get behind. Or are you actually more wedded to Brexit than you say?

 

[mcfc1632]

If we sign up to the backstop there will be no successful resolution to the Irish border until the EU have fully screwed us in the negotiations.

It's a relief to know that I am not alone in this alternate universe - aka the real world

His later comments suggesting that he has been talking about an agreement on the border being made and therefore the backstop would not ever come into play can only be utter confusion or deliberate fabrication as my later posts demonstrate.

He has been talking about the UK signing May's deal.

 

[mcfc1632]

But that would mean us signing up to the backstop, would it not ?

i could have sworn I was talking about the eventuality of us doing a deal on the Irish border, right now & therefore the backstop being dropped ?

Is that not what I spelled out, several times ?

I could have sworn I even used the word 'today' as an example somewhere & mentioned that 'the backstop' can't get through Parliament ?

You are wholly inconsistent and simply incoherently rambling - and given the first line you are now also twisting and deceiving even yourself - but likely no one else

My comments have consistently been that we must not sign-up to the backstop as currently set out in the WA

It is the only backstop that currently exists - the WA is the document that the EU says it will nor reopen (have you been away for a long time?)

I have also said several times that an 'elegant' solution is to remove the backstop and replace it with an agreement to conclude border arrangements during the transition period - and, in the event that arrangements could not be agreed during the transition period, then the Irish Sea option is adopted.

For this to happen though the EU must reverse its position that it will not reopen the WA - and it is not going to want to do that. Therefore the pressure brought about by the risk of a no-deal outcome is important to persuading them to.

and No - you have not been saying what you suggest in this post - you are fabricating here. What you said that started this exchange was:

Incidentally, you earlier edited out the bit where I said 'I will reluctantly accept a deal, which will be the exact one which May's team negotiated, if it happens'.

​

and in response to @blueinsa expressing something similar to my views - i.e. changing the existing WA, you said:

That isn't you compromising, that's you telling the Irish to compromise.

So yes - your posts leading up to this exchange was you talking about the UK signing up to May's deal, confirmed by:

May's deal, is the one agreed by our Government & the EU. , which could have been sorted & implemented, years ago......

But if he Government now signs up to May's deal...…..

May's deal has the backstop as is - not any Irish Sea option.

So you are indeed the one living in an alternate reality because there is nothing being offered by the EU at this moment other than the backstop set out in the existing WA and therefore:

a) if we were ever be stupid enough to sign the existing WA, then

b) the agreement on the border will most certainly not be achieved, therefore

c) the backstop will be invoked leading to

d) the UK not being able to control its exit

So - for those hard of hearing at the back - The existing WA must not be agreed/signed by the UK, unless and until the backstop is either removed or effectively fettered

Hopefully you can find your way back to the real world - for those of us already in this world and not too pig-headed to refuse to listen too basic stuff - this is all very fucking obvious

 

[Rascal]

You say you are not wedded to Brexit but to democracy. What democracy are you wedded to?

There are different forms of democracy, most of which are generally built on the assumption that the public are well informed, not misinformed, lied to or manipulated (perhaps I'm naïve in this). Also democracy can be knowing you've made a mistake and taking steps to rectify it as quickly as possible without having to suffer the full consequences.

Britain is a parliamentary democracy and it is trying to enact a result via direct democracy and that result means different things to different people. A parliamentary democracy carrying out the wish of a direct democratic result knowing it's bad for the country and it's people is insane and completely at odds with it's role is it not?
That is not democracy, it's a clusterfuck and mainly due to the referendum question being completely flawed.

For an example of how a referendum should be ran look at NZ and the flag referendum a few years ago. Designs for a new flag were presented to the public who voted for their favourite, the winner then went head to head with the current flag. Everyone knew what they were voting for.
It wasn't just a yes no question with yes winning and then ending up with the flag bearing a picture of Greg and Trevor Chappell's arseholes (a reference for cricket lovers) and the campaigners for change saying "well you knew what you were voting for".

It might not be palatable for some on here but Labour's stance on this is the best on offer. Negotiate a deal first then put this to the electorate who are then well informed on what leaving the EU entails and it goes up against Remain. This is the only reasonable way out of this madness.

If you really are for democracy then this is surely the option you'd get behind. Or are you actually more wedded to Brexit than you say?

That's a good post, and I would say it is fairly close to reality. I was against the referendum from the start , it was called for the wrong reasons, we have no constitutional provision for one, it was poorly presented and as a result it became about emotional attachment and the struggle for the UK to find a place in the world. Fintan O'Toole the Irish writer wrote a brilliant book on it called "heroic failure, Brexit and the politics of pain" which is well worth a read if you wish to understand it more.

I am a Labour Party member and of course I support their policy as I think it is well represented but I still don't like referendums so I am in a bind. I also think that if we are to leave, then no deal at all is possibly the best way forward although I am still undecided. This is where you point about democracy being reliant on people being well informed is such a good one. I am fairly well educated to degree standard and I have struggled to get my head around the complexities of the whole issue. I am not saying others have not understood it, but if they have then fair play to them as they are brighter and more able than me.

Your last point is very true, our nation has become so divided over the issue it has become all consuming and we have the ridiculous situation of what happened in the supreme court. People who are for the want of a better words, Brextremists see it as an establishment conspiracy run by remainiacs. The two positions are now deeply entrenched and If you read the toing and froing on here just for a day you will get an idea that nobody seems to want to change their mind as by backing down it would mean accepting defeat.

The issue now dominates our everyday life, at times it appears nothing else matters apart from Brexit and every political decision is viewed through the Brexit prism and you are spot on in my opinion when you say the following.

"Britain is a parliamentary democracy and it is trying to enact a result via direct democracy and that result means different things to different people. A parliamentary democracy carrying out the wish of a direct democratic result knowing it's bad for the country and it's people is insane and completely at odds with it's role."


It says a lot when a person from New Zealand can speak more sense on an issue than a majority of people in the UK.

Cheers for posting your thoughts.

 

[mcfc1632]

Just news but it hopefully it puts to bed accusations against the leave campaign and those behind it in the same way this mornings rulings have put to bed any doubts that our PM is a lying twat who unlawfully prorogued Parliament.

I wonder how many post there have been on here that state - as if it were indeed fact - that there were criminal offences committed?

As I catch-up on the next 12 pages it will be interesting to count how many of those that have so resolutely made these claims are as quick to come onto the thread and admit that they were wrong.

I am deliberately setting my expectations low.

 

[Rascal]

I wonder how many post there have been on here that state factually that there were criminal offences committed?

As I catch-up on the next 12 pages it will be interesting to count how many of those that have so resolutely made these claims are as quick to come onto the thread and admit that they were wrong.

I am deliberately setting my expectations low.

I am wrong.

No idea why, but Chippy Boy says I am always wrong ;))

 

[mcfc1632]

Your Brexit's going really well, fellas. Thanks a lot for ticking that box in 2016 and sorting out the country's problems and getting us back to being a great nation again.

It's incredible 3 years later to think that us remain scaremongers said it would be a disaster. What did we know, eh? We should have listened to Banks, Mogg, Johnson, Neil Warnock and Geoff Boycott all along.

Well - thank you for that, it helps

TBF, we Bluemooners cannot take all the credit - we did have > 17m other UK citizens in agreement with us

 

[FlemishDuck]

A parliamentary democracy carrying out the wish of a direct democratic result knowing it's bad for the country and it's people is insane and completely at odds with it's role is it not?

From a legal perspective a decisive distinction ... DISCRIMINATION must be made between a legally binding referendum and a non binding referendum. The former MUST be executed (provided afcourse it doesn't infringe within such things like human rights for example) and the latter "parliament should theoreticly feel free to ignore at will"(*) so to say.

There could always be another scenario where politicians think the outcome of a referendum was wrong but the for the wrong reasons and acting on what they believe is their consience might have a negative outcome since "the people are right". In such a case it would not do for a binding referendum to be ignored by parliament.

(*) but arguably, the theoretical non-binding referendum that is Brexit cannot just be ignored at will. Thats a rather unfortunate attribute of a referendum that one had deemed non-binding, doesn't help that you had so many parlementarians going official with the words "we will respect this referendum regardless the outcome.

 

[Rascal]

Listening to the Moggcast.

He is the 1st Tory MP I have heard say that leaving the EU opens the door for Socialism, he obviously recognises the LEXIT approach and whilst saying he doesn't think the nation will elect a Socialist Government he knows that leaving the EU increases the chances of Socialism coming to the UK.

He is not as stupid as I thought.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

Honestly i only see one way out of it and that is to leave.

GE returns a hung parliament split on brexit.

Second ref similar and if leave wins again it wont happen again because of parliament and if remain wins leavers will go bonkers.

Leave, hope it turns out ok and if it doesnt then rejoin and move on with everyone having had their way in leaving and ultimately being back in the club.

The result and vote cannot be erased and forgotten.

Don't agree .... Labour policy would be to negotiate the best agreement we could get (probably Single Market and Customs Union ) and then put it to the people and properly explain what the leave agreement would deliver.

Leave on these terms or Remain (and Reform)

At least that would bring clarity to the Leave position (remainers knew what they were voting for).

There can only be two questions because any other would split the leave vote.

IIRC .. this is what Rees Mogg promised as well.

 

[mcfc1632]

I don’t hate you all, actually. I’ve got staff, family members and friends who voted leave. I feel sorry for you for being duped by the real villains of the piece, and frustrated at you for not seeing it, or pretending not to see it.

Well that is certainly a relief to me and I am sure many others - we can feel better about ourselves now

The day has gotten off to a good start

 

[denislawsbackheel]

I wonder how many post there have been on here that state factually that there were criminal offences committed?

As I catch-up on the next 12 pages it will be interesting to count how many of those that have so resolutely made these claims are as quick to come onto the thread and admit that they were wrong.

I am deliberately setting my expectations low.

Brexshit going down the crapper and that’s your best shot?

 

[blueinsa]

You say you are not wedded to Brexit but to democracy. What democracy are you wedded to?

There are different forms of democracy, most of which are generally built on the assumption that the public are well informed, not misinformed, lied to or manipulated (perhaps I'm naïve in this). Also democracy can be knowing you've made a mistake and taking steps to rectify it as quickly as possible without having to suffer the full consequences.

Britain is a parliamentary democracy and it is trying to enact a result via direct democracy and that result means different things to different people. A parliamentary democracy carrying out the wish of a direct democratic result knowing it's bad for the country and it's people is insane and completely at odds with it's role is it not?
That is not democracy, it's a clusterfuck and mainly due to the referendum question being completely flawed.

For an example of how a referendum should be ran look at NZ and the flag referendum a few years ago. Designs for a new flag were presented to the public who voted for their favourite, the winner then went head to head with the current flag. Everyone knew what they were voting for.
It wasn't just a yes no question with yes winning and then ending up with the flag bearing a picture of Greg and Trevor Chappell's arseholes (a reference for cricket lovers) and the campaigners for change saying "well you knew what you were voting for".

It might not be palatable for some on here but Labour's stance on this is the best on offer. Negotiate a deal first then put this to the electorate who are then well informed on what leaving the EU entails and it goes up against Remain. This is the only reasonable way out of this madness.

If you really are for democracy then this is surely the option you'd get behind. Or are you actually more wedded to Brexit than you say?

If you vote in your by-election tomorrow and your candidate wins but the losers all say fuck that, we want someone else and your man isnt sitting in Westminster would you be ok with that?

Labour wins the next GE but everyone else says fuck that, Corbyn is what too dangerous and we refuse to accept him or a Labour government. You ok with that?

Im not interested in how the ref should have been run or the question asked etc because its all after the fact and all because you lost the vote, that is 100% clear. Everyone knew the rules of the vote and the question asked and had you won not a peep would have been heard.

The only way out of this madness as you put it is to respect the result and leave. By all means rejoin later if its shit but if you think you can ride roughshod over a vote that 17.4 million voted for and won you are pissed and certainly not in a position to ask me what form of democracy i am interested in.

 

[blueinsa]

Don't agree .... Labour policy would be to negotiate the best agreement we could get (probably Single Market and Customs Union ) and then put it to the people and properly explain what the leave agreement would deliver.

Leave on these terms or Remain (and Reform)

At least that would bring clarity to the Leave position (remainers knew what they were voting for).

There can only be two questions because any other would split the leave vote.

IIRC .. this is what Rees Mogg promised as well.

yeah it you (remain) knew what you was voting for and i (we) didnt again.

There is no further debate to be had because we have been here before and simply do not and never will agree.

 

[blueinsa]

Brexshit going down the crapper and that’s your best shot?

Answer it?

 

[FlemishDuck]

Listening to the Moggcast.

He is the 1st Tory MP I have heard say that leaving the EU opens the door for Socialism, he obviously recognises the LEXIT approach and whilst saying he doesn't think the nation will elect a Socialist Government he knows that leaving the EU increases the chances of Socialism coming to the UK.

He is not as stupid as I thought.

Whilst the Eu certainly entails certain economic norms that socialists couldn't nessecarily ignore, i fail to see how the UK would eitherhow be "the most socialist country in the EU already by a mile"... I don't see how the EU would prevent Corbyn from making the UK more socialist to a degree that has some overdramatic UK rich bidding for ammunitions.

 

[blueinsa]

That's a good post, and I would say it is fairly close to reality. I was against the referendum from the start , it was called for the wrong reasons, we have no constitutional provision for one, it was poorly presented and as a result it became about emotional attachment and the struggle for the UK to find a place in the world. Fintan O'Toole the Irish writer wrote a brilliant book on it called "heroic failure, Brexit and the politics of pain" which is well worth a read if you wish to understand it more.

I am a Labour Party member and of course I support their policy as I think it is well represented but I still don't like referendums so I am in a bind. I also think that if we are to leave, then no deal at all is possibly the best way forward although I am still undecided. This is where you point about democracy being reliant on people being well informed is such a good one. I am fairly well educated to degree standard and I have struggled to get my head around the complexities of the whole issue. I am not saying others have not understood it, but if they have then fair play to them as they are brighter and more able than me.

Your last point is very true, our nation has become so divided over the issue it has become all consuming and we have the ridiculous situation of what happened in the supreme court. People who are for the want of a better words, Brextremists see it as an establishment conspiracy run by remainiacs. The two positions are now deeply entrenched and If you read the toing and froing on here just for a day you will get an idea that nobody seems to want to change their mind as by backing down it would mean accepting defeat.

The issue now dominates our everyday life, at times it appears nothing else matters apart from Brexit and every political decision is viewed through the Brexit prism and you are spot on in my opinion when you say the following.

"Britain is a parliamentary democracy and it is trying to enact a result via direct democracy and that result means different things to different people. A parliamentary democracy carrying out the wish of a direct democratic result knowing it's bad for the country and it's people is insane and completely at odds with it's role."


It says a lot when a person from New Zealand can speak more sense on an issue than a majority of people in the UK.

Cheers for posting your thoughts.

You cant turn the clock back.

I've been against all sorts of things in my life, including GE at certain times but once they have been called and people have voted that is that.

3 years of desperately trying to overturn a result because you didn't agree with its timing or in this instance the way it was formed isn't a reason other than you lost and are desperate to get your own way.

If thats our new democracy where the loser dictates from now on then i am out and i suspect most people will be.

 

[FlemishDuck]

I've been against all sorts of things in my life, including GE at certain times but once they have been called and people have voted that is that.

A non binding "indicative" referendum simply does not hold the legal equivelance that a GE has. The former can be legaly ignored at will the latter can't.

 

[blueinsa]

A non binding "indicative" referendum simply does not hold the legal equivelance that a GE has. The former can be legaly ignored at will the latter can't.

If they want to ignore it then fine but they need to remember that we will be having a GE sooner rather than later.

Hopefully the losers of that can accept this time?