Another new Brexit thread

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Ancient Citizen said:
They also want in.
In power.
The possibility of that, even if they manage to stymie Johnson yet again, is now remote, to say the least.
If Corbyn thinks his incessant refusals to vote for anything, or to state which position he adopts, is gaining him
popularity, he's deluded. Labour have had obscure and constantly changing narratives on Brexit now for the past 3 years,
their modus operandi has been to attempt to humiliate Johnson, to object and introduce ridiculous stunts like the Benn act,
and Johnson has now completely done them over. If this deal isn't passed, it won't hurt Johnson, Corbyn could not possibly
refuse a GE, it will be called, and he will be well beaten imo.
If this happens, and labour don't get an electable leader immediately, they're gone for the forseeable.
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Agree completely.
 
mancity2012_eamo said:
Listened to RTÉ radio 1 this morning and a very good discussion that had Ben Lowry representing the Unionist view.
He spoke very well and quite moderately.

The thing about never trusting a Tory is, that it just seemed inevitable in the Republic that this would happen eventually. NI was strategic to UK governments at best and a nuisance even at that.
To Middle England, it has never been in doubt, that they would be willing to drop the place and be done with it.

That’s harsh. Particularly with the history of the last 100 years and however outdated an economical concept, the 6 counties are, Ulster Unionism does have a point as a whole, not just the DUP, when it says that the rules of consent are being changed at the first sign of them not having a majority in the Assembly.

The fact that there is no assembly at the moment and the UK government who they can no longer rely on, can impose a decision on them should it be like that in the future, means that lack of interest or inevitable betrayal that we down south are not surprised by, is starting to dawn on the Unionist community.
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I don't trust any of the skunks who walk the corridors of Westminster purporting to represent the people!

I shan't be going through the nitty gritty of 'the deal' - there's too much cycling and too little time! - but I suspect that 'the deal' will be only marginally different to 'the deal' that we had four years ago as a full member!
 
Chippy_boy said:
I dunno? Who does? Have they been? Seems they are all Corbyn and McDonnell ever pander to.
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You've confused the working class with the lower middle class. Nobody in politics supports the working class now. Most call them yobs, chavs, scum, townies or some variety of this slur.

The working class now as the X Factor watching single Mum with 3 kids living on the council estate and the on again-off again relationship she has with the uneducated bloke who does odd unskilled jobs where he can between factories, building sites and general labouring.

Most people fucking despise the working classes.

The Tories don't even know that they exist and Labour think they're a bunch of uneducated racists who we'd all be better off if they didn't exist. Labour appeal to lower middle class; well educated or at least well read people who have/had a comfortable life and are generally people full of principles and don't know how much an eighth goes for. Many will be in the public sector, but just as many are in the private sector or unemployed through circumstance.

Nobody hates the working classes more than those who proclaim themselves the saviours of them.
 
Chippy_boy said:
It seems to me that this situation is actually very very simple. I've had my "road to Damascus" moment, but others seem to be struggling with it, so let me explain where I am coming from.

1. We had a referendum which I am sure everyone will agree, despite all our preferences, reservations, objections or what-have-you's, was positioned as a, once-in-life-time binary vote on whether we should stay in, or Leave. And also there was a universal commitment from all involved that the result would be respected.

2. Realising what a cluster-fuck this was, I chose to ignore this and argued passionately for a full reversal or a second referendum in order to get the result I'd have preferred. In hindsight, this was wrong. The result must be honoured. For two reasons, (a) because to not do so, would destroy all faith in democracy in this country and (b) because those who voted Leave will never let it drop anyway. We cannot move on, and start addressing all the problems in society - the very things that many people were driven to vote Leave over - until we move on and Leave.

3. There can no justification for rejecting a democratic referendum result. However, if there was to be one, then the only plausible objection might be that no-one voted to leave without a deal. That people were told there would be a deal. That the economy will be trashed without a deal. We now have a deal, so that objection is eiiminated and can no longer be valid.

Therefore the ONLY sensible option, the only morally acceptable option, is now for MPs to vote to accept the deal. I think enough of them will realise this and it will be passed.
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All very noble. Except this only happened to you when Boris came in. You aren't a democrat, you're a Tory.
 
blueinsa said:
Like him or not and most on here fucking hate him and brexit for that matter, politically he has out manoeuvred the lot of them in Westminster.

The only deal on the table he got rid of and brought a new one.

Proved he wasn't all about no deal.

The backstop that couldn't be got rid of he got rid of.

DUP aside he looks to have got the ERG, most of the Tory rebels and plenty from labour if the reports are true to back it come tomorrow.

Last but not least, he has got Dublin and Brussels and the 27 to agree to it and we have a chance to finally move onto the next stage.

He has played them all like a cheap fiddle imo when in any other times and with any other opposition he would have been toast, such is the sheer fucking crapness of Labour under Corbyn and that front bench.
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I’d add a few mitigating circumstances and explanations, whys and how’s to that, but basically.......
Yes.
So far so good. He probably will get it through, on Saturday.

I don’t think this was all part of a master plan but his team have adapted to what parliament put in front of him each time.

I still think there will be huge fallout from this and the shit is only beginning.

But give the **** credit. He is currently staying one step ahead of the opposition in what is essentially still a power agenda.
 
jay_mcfc said:
All very noble. Except this only happened to you when Boris came in. You aren't a democrat, you're a Tory.
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Love posts like this.

You're just a Tory.

Its like saying you're just a nonce or kiddy fiddler on here.

So what he is a conservative? It isn't fucking illegal.
 
Rascal said:
I rejoined Momentum this morning and as much as I think we should leave, any Labour MP that votes for a deal that removes workers rights is quite rightly finished.

I have posted that Brexit was never really just about Brexit it was also about the destruction of the Labour party and the chance for permanent rule for the Tories. A back door to a one party state, a state free to become the Singapore on Thames neo-liberal dreamland of the hard right.
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If the deal passes the only momentum will be the swinging boots directed at Corbyn's arse;)
 
blueinsa said:
Agree completely.
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I'd like to.

My only reservation is I am surprised how "soft" Johnson's deal is. I had imagined (and hoped) that if the deal doesn't get through and we end up with an extension followed by a GE, that most Brexit Party supporters would switch to the Tories. But I am not sure of that now, and as a result the Tory vote could be badly split. Labour's vote will be way down, and split, as well. So a GE IMO if we don't leave in 2 weeks would result in a hung parliament with the Tories being the largest party, and yet more paralysis.
 
Chippy_boy said:
I'd like to.

My only reservation is I am surprised how "soft" Johnson's deal is. I had imagined (and hoped) that if the deal doesn't get through and we end up with an extension followed by a GE, that most Brexit Party supporters would switch to the Tories. But I am not sure of that now, and as a result the Tory vote could be badly split. Labour's vote will be way down, and split, as well. So a GE IMO if we don't leave in 2 weeks would result in a hung parliament with the Tories being the largest party, and yet more paralysis.
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3 years of the government must compromise and months of he wants no deal.

He wanted a deal, he compromised to ensure we got one and he delivered.

Labour are done for because Corbyn is useless and has offered zero leadership on the brexit issue.
 
Damocles said:
You've confused the working class with the lower middle class. Nobody in politics supports the working class now. Most call them yobs, chavs, scum, townies or some variety of this slur.

The working class now as the X Factor watching single Mum with 3 kids living on the council estate and the on again-off again relationship she has with the uneducated bloke who does odd unskilled jobs where he can between factories, building sites and general labouring.

Most people fucking despise the working classes.

The Tories don't even know that they exist and Labour think they're a bunch of uneducated racists who we'd all be better off if they didn't exist. Labour appeal to lower middle class; well educated or at least well read people who have/had a comfortable life and are generally people full of principles and don't know how much an eighth goes for. Many will be in the public sector, but just as many are in the private sector or unemployed through circumstance.

Nobody hates the working classes more than those who proclaim themselves the saviours of them.
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All very possibly true, but seriously wtf has this got to do with the price of bread? And least of all the "another new Brexit" thread?
 
blueinsa said:
I could.

I could spend weeks telling you but you know what, you would say nope, dont agree so what is the point?

The ref has been done, the result in and the government has done what you all said was impossible in getting the backstop removed, negotiations reopened and a new deal agreed that looks like it might get through.

All with Parliament holding a gun to his head for the past god knows how many weeks.

All the chips went on him coming back with no deal and the Benn act being put into action and he has pulled your rug out from under you.
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Yes, but some would argue that it was the absence of NoDeal, extension of A50, die in the ditch, gun to the head, that actually got him off his arse looking for solutions.

Some would also argue that the solutions were there, ready to be chosen.

Just saying what some might say BI.
 
blueinsa said:
That has not happened unlike the backstop that the EU would have 100% used did in effect.

You're a man that wants the people of the 4 nations to make their own decisions and here we have just that.

They remain in the UK and benefit from new trade deals and they remain under certain EU rules that means no hard border and gives many of them the certainty they enjoy now with an all Ireland trade model.

In 4 years time they get to decide for themselves what they want and both the republicans and unionists have an effective veto because they all get a democratic vote and voice.

No deal was never happening because it killed Ireland and under no circumstances was the hard border ever going too happen.

Sure the DUP are pissed but then they always are but lets not spend 3 years laughing at them Bob to suddenly feel sorry for them eh? They dont speak for the majority as you have constantly told us so like everyone else they will have to accept the democratic wish of their fellow citizens like we all have to do.
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I don’t feel sorry anymore than I do with Farage looking like someone took his toys off him. I don’t even have much of a problem with the deal as I didn’t with May’s deal. I agree with the consent concession made by Dublin/EU for this to work.

But acknowledgment as to what has actually happened and what this potentially means going forward would be welcome and whilst I don’t feel sympathy for the DUP I can acknowledge that their unhappiness was and is a problem for this proposal to work. To repeat myself, a solution in NI has to find favour with both communities, Unionist and Nationalist, not just one.

Creating an internal customs border within our own Union is a major development and can’t be ignored. Johnson’s deal comes with a hefty price tag and one that our previous PM declined to pay.
 
jay_mcfc said:
All very noble. Except this only happened to you when Boris came in. You aren't a democrat, you're a Tory.
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From a timing perspective that is true. But please understand I am on record saying that Boris is fuckwit, a buffoon and someone for whom I have little or no respect. I'll dig out my posts on the subject if you wish.

But yes I am a Tory, and were it Corbyn who was driving towards some position or other, I'd probably find it much more difficult to fall in line and support it. A fair cop in that respect.

But at the end of the day mate, what's really changed in my thinking is, I've had enough of this shit. After 3.5 years of it, I want us to move on one way or another. I am almost beyond caring: just get the fuck on with it. And it's dawned on me that it is NEVER going away unless we leave. 17.4m voters have "right" on their side and would be justified in never letting it drop if we don't leave. 16.1m voters have no such claim and will have to accept it when we do.
 
BobKowalski said:
I don’t feel sorry anymore than I do with Farage looking like someone took his toys off him. I don’t even have much of a problem with the deal as I didn’t with May’s deal. I agree with the consent concession made by Dublin/EU for this to work.

But acknowledgment as to what has actually happened and what this potentially means going forward would be welcome and whilst I don’t feel sympathy for the DUP I can acknowledge that their unhappiness was and is a problem for this proposal to work. To repeat myself, a solution in NI has to find favour with both communities, Unionist and Nationalist, not just one.

Creating an internal customs border within our own Union is a major development and can’t be ignored. Johnson’s deal comes with a hefty price tag and one that our previous PM declined to pay.
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Pretty sure Scotland would also like the N Ireland style internal customs border too if this goes through.
 
Chippy_boy said:
I'd like to.

My only reservation is I am surprised how "soft" Johnson's deal is. I had imagined (and hoped) that if the deal doesn't get through and we end up with an extension followed by a GE, that most Brexit Party supporters would switch to the Tories. But I am not sure of that now, and as a result the Tory vote could be badly split. Labour's vote will be way down, and split, as well. So a GE IMO if we don't leave in 2 weeks would result in a hung parliament with the Tories being the largest party, and yet more paralysis.
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That is assuming that the tories can find someone to get into bed with having shafted both the DUP Lib Dem's there's not much left. I can only see the Brexit party picking up a couple of seats at best.
 
mancity2012_eamo said:
Yes, but some would argue that it was the absence of NoDeal, extension of A50, die in the ditch, gun to the head, that actually got him off his arse looking for solutions.

Some would also argue that the solutions were there, ready to be chosen.

Just saying what some might say BI.
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Some would say that, but they're talking cobblers in an attempt to assuage the grief of what has happened.
Johnson has been PM for around 100 days, he immediately announced what should have been implemented by the dire
May, that we would leave deal or not, he made constant references to ensure we'd get one, indeed, he was upbeat about
it, and it's proved to be the case. To suggest he did rock all, and then managed to sort this in a fortnight or so is nonsense,
but hey-ho, if it gives comfort, who are we to deny it?
 
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