General Election - December 12th, 2019

[Coatigan]

What do you think? Do you think it’s a good idea to allow foreign nationals working in the U.K. access to the health system?

Anyone that actually genuinely believes foreigners actually get free healthcare should just stop right there, and not bother with anything else. Like, at all. Complete failure in understanding absolute basics, of the EU, non-eu, reciprocal agreements and contributions.

 

[Coatigan]

Not at all, they are still foreign nationals. In other countries you have to buy health insurance and I seriously don't know how education works in other countries. I have had to buy health insurance when I have worked abroad it's not a strange concept.

You are basing an entire arguement on incorrect assumptions, and a lack of information.

 

[Coatigan]

Typically if you get a work visa it means you have arrived to do a job and that visa will provide you with access to Health and Education services but not other benefits. Very often the visa costs will include an annual health surcharge which in a way is a premium for the ‘insurance’ of healthcare. EU nationals don’t require a visa and health is covered by reciprocity. You look after our nationals and we will look after yours. This can also apply to countries outside the EU it just depends on the arrangements between the countries concerned.

We will not attract necessary immigration or people with required skill sets if we say that if you get ill the best we can do is offer you is the recipe for a hot toddy. It’s short sighted and self defeating. Additionally how we treat foreign nationals will be reflected in how other countries treat our nationals.

I posted my rather abrupt responses on this before getting to this, but in a nutshell this is it. Everyone pays. one way or another. Often more than the nationals.

The rest is just divisive rhetoric by our esteemed media and politicians to fire people up to secure the mass opinions and votes they need.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

Interesting points. On the scapegoating and pushing all our ills on to Europe/EU etc that is essentially Brexit. Things are bad because we let them control us. Cast them aside and thrive yada, yada. What is never mentioned is the absolute balls up we made of the things we did control and the use of austerity for political and not just fiscal reasons which has resulted in negative wage growth something that didn’t happen in the EU other than Greece if I recall.

Felt his analysis of the Corbyn/anti semitism problem was superficial as Corbyn needed to have shown leadership and didn’t which allowed the problem and the perception of it to increase. I like McDonnell’s ideas and I do think we need to reasses and reevaluate who we are, what we want to be and address the changes that are coming and that need to come. But there is a knee jerk resistance to anything that smacks of change even something as uncontroversial as access to broadband for everyone. And it’s more about shooting the messenger than the message.

Labour’s policies are unlikely to be that radical. Most of them will be seen as bog standard in most European countries. Here though it’s ‘broadband communism’ lol.

A lot of the 'radical' policies are simply putting us back to where we were prior to 2010...but still Conservatives don't get it .

 

[mexico1970]

A) that is not the case. foreign, both EU and non-eu pay for both. in quite different ways. It is just that the majority of brits are so incredibly ignorant not to know this nor do they want to. Makes their anger more justifiable.

B). yes, absolutely normal.

You're wrong.

 

[Bill]

Ha! I missed this earlier!!

Let me tell you that the NHS is not buggered because 'too many foreigners' are using the NHS!! That's lie they spin when they need to explain why the NHS is doing poorly! The migrants that come here have to pay their tax and NI as @BobKowalski has correctly said.

If that's not what you mean, then ALL EU countries suffer from 'health tourism' and we're not different.

Once we know that is happening, we take all identification details and speak to the person's Gov. Most people do NOT get away with scamming the NHS.

See? You have to know the subject, not listen to reasons your Gov decides to spin you!

It's the open and shameless robbing of the NHS that this Gov has allowed, instead of training inhouse staff to do the majority of things outside of specialities.

Ive been waiting 3 weeks an emergency procedure. There are no beds.
If one single person, who has paid Jack shit,is taking a bed from someone pay in for 50 years then its a fucking disgrace

 

[mexico1970]

Anyone that actually genuinely believes foreigners actually get free healthcare should just stop right there, and not bother with anything else. Like, at all. Complete failure in understanding absolute basics, of the EU, non-eu, reciprocal agreements and contributions.

What part of free don't you understand? You have to actually pay in most EU countries when you get medical care, it's simple.

 

[Coatigan]

You're wrong.

I'm not.

It is not free, for anyone. There are just different ways that it is paid for. You could get into specific examples, but the lrinciple stands.

In some ways, it has been covered already, im late to the party.

 

[Coatigan]

I'm not.

It is not free, for anyone. There are just different ways that it is paid for. You could get into specific examples, but the lrinciple stands.

In some ways, it has been covered already, im late to the party.

I'm not the one misunderstanding free. As i know you have to pay for care. Here too.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

I'm not being short sighted and I have some friends who work in the NHS and I admire the work and hours you do. Most people jump to conclusions that leavers are all bigots when there not.
My issue is not with people coming here and working hard and the NHS is an area I agree we need them. Many looked after my dad in Salford last year before he died.

My issue is more people who come here with no job or prospects and "use" our system to gain more or less free healthcare without ever paying into the system. This has to stop and I totally back the conservatives.
And yes most people now work for less.
I have put countless hours unpaid for 30 years, if I didn't I'd lose my job.
It's not just the NHS mate.

So .... Ive tried to keep quiet but once again for those at the back,,,,,,,the rules are

From the EU

1)We are NOT in the Schengen Agreement .... The UK DOES NOT subscribe to Freedom of Movement! We subscribe to Freedom of Movement of Labour.

2) To enter the UK YOU MUST HAVE A JOB OFFER IN WRITING.... or prove that you are self sufficient and can support yourself on an annual income in excess of £18500.

3) There is no requirement to pay for NHS cover as there is a reciprocal arrangement .... fall sick or get injured over there and you will be looked after by their health service. (try going into hospital in France or Germany ! lovely ...)

4) Unemployed for a period of three months or more .. you can be asked to return home if you do not have reasonable prospects of employment.

5) Access to benefits is restricted... but in any event is likely to be more about 'In work' benefits such as housing allowance / tax credits as a large number of Eu migrants do low paid work

Cameron was told to implement the rules that were in place when he tried to renegotiate with the EU .... We couldn't because we hadn't set up the infrastructure at our border controls to gather this information or monitor the whereabouts of people once they had entered the uk .

Your Government didn't bother!

 

[mcfc1632]

Well, post imperialism, this great nation doesn't appear to be doing that badly, why are we declining, and who is doing better?
No doubt this will result in the usual suspects painting Britain as a Dickensian nightmare with ragged starvelings clutching
at the clothes of passing toffs wearing supercilious sneers, but the reality is far different.

The reality = inconvenient truths

 

[mcfc1632]

Judging by the daytime posts on here Monday to Friday I reckon a lot of Bluemooners are already only doing 32 hours work in a week.

Don't think so!!

Some of them are clearly spending hours each day being paid whilst not being 'very productive'

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

Ive been waiting 3 weeks an emergency procedure. There are no beds.
If one single person, who has paid Jack shit,is taking a bed from someone pay in for 50 years then its a fucking disgrace

Thats not the immigrants fault .... its the failure of your government to maintain infrastructure and staffing / skills capability...... we had a baby boom in the 60's and the system / government failed us then ..... bet you wouldn't blame the babies tho would you?

 

[mcfc1632]

Just wading into the healthcare debate, we have 1.2M UK citizens in the EU, but 2.4M EU citizens in the UK so looking at it from a cold, financial POV, I can see the logic for levying a charge.

Spot on - but there are far more EU citizens than 2.4m I think

So the argument is much stronger

 

[blueparrot]

L

Ive been waiting 3 weeks an emergency procedure. There are no beds.
If one single person, who has paid Jack shit,is taking a bed from someone pay in for 50 years then its a fucking disgrace

Yes and without the immigrants working in the hospital you’d be waiting a damn sight longer. No ones taking your bed that doesn't deserve it as much as you do Maybe you should have voted for governments that invested in social care more, my daughters ward have 6 people blocking beds because there isn’t space in care homes or enough nurses to provide support and equipment for them to recover at home.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

Spot on - but there are far more EU citizens than 2.4m I think

So the argument is much stronger

Nope ... your logic doesn't compute


You need to match the demographics of the 2.4 m Eu immigrants against the UK population that is in the EU ...

 

[denislawsbackheel]

Ive been waiting 3 weeks an emergency procedure. There are no beds.
If one single person, who has paid Jack shit,is taking a bed from someone pay in for 50 years then its a fucking disgrace

so that’s all children, the unemployed and the severely disabled who you think you should be in front of.

or do you want to rethink that...

 

[Blue Hefner]

so that’s all children, the unemployed and the severely disabled who you think you should be in front of.

or do you want to rethink that...

Imagine how angry he’d be if a bus full of tourists crashed, injuring several who had paid ‘Jack shit’

The whole infrastructure of the country needs looking at and changing. However for anything to happen, even slightly, the next government needs to get Brexit out of the way which is more or less impossible for the next couple of years(I’m being generous) so as individuals we either have to get used to it or go private

 

[mcfc1632]

You've been told to fuck off not because you're not pure enough, but because you're a Tory.

Well - you are simply wrong - but I will try to be more respectful to a fellow Bluemoon member than you have been - did you miss Ric requesting this?

It is a simple fact that I have voted Labour many more times than I have voted Tory (only twice)

The problem you have - I respectfully suggest - is that people like me and others on here are in fact the true face of an 'electable Labour' - and you most certainly are not.

 

[Ban-jani]

Ive been waiting 3 weeks an emergency procedure. There are no beds.
If one single person, who has paid Jack shit,is taking a bed from someone pay in for 50 years then its a fucking disgrace

The chances of this are highly unlikely.

The data suggests this isn’t a problem and the majority of EU nationals are in their 20’s and 30’s in the UK and are working.

In fact, EU Nationals contribute more than us on average, into the system.

The reason you cannot get a bed is terrible planning in the NHS and the governments fault.