General Election - December 12th, 2019

[Len Rum]

Len, you may happen to believe that taking more money off person A to give it to person B, is necessarily and fundamentally a good idea. Whereas I happen to believe that letting person A keep more of their money, is fundamentally a good idea. I have good reasons for my opinion, based on the evidence of failed socialist and communist economies all around the globe over the past 100 years. Penalising success and rewarding failure, is not a model which drives economic growth and prosperity. Never has been, never will be.

Yours and mine are two different opinions. Yours is not "right" and mine "wrong". You do not have any moral high ground for your generosity with other peoples' money. Nil. You have no right to declare ME to be scrooge-like. Sorry, but you do not. And such insults are neither recognised nor accepted. Waste. Of. Time.

Moreover, you have spectacularly failed to grasp that I am not even one of the rich people you so clearly despise. So take your bitterness elsewhere you old fool. Save it for another Labour election defeat.

Wotever.
Anyway my story begins with a young idealistic science student in the 80s who is a bit unhappy with Thatcherism. He reads a book called neoliberalism for dummies which basically says that if you give rich people loads of money then the wealth trickles down to the poor. This informs his views in his adult life. When the Berlin wall falls in 1989 he is vindicated. Communism is defeated, capitalism has won. It is as Hegel once called the end of time. This is how the world will run for ever.
In the next episode we fast forward to 2019 when the western economy has undergone a banking colapse and is on life support with cheap money from central banks, countries have racked up massive debts and are fearing the next crash.
Our main character is visited by a person seeking to redistribute some of the wealth being horded by the rich to the poor. His name is Jeremiah Corbyn.
To be continued.

 

[ultimateharold]

It's absolutely incredible people don't realise this

I have known of people who have actually turned jobs down thinking that all their earnings will then be hit by a higher rate. How they were smart enough to get close to the threshold is baffling.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

You’ll only get the additional tax being introduced on the penny that takes you to £80,000. Technically speaking you’re still better off on £80k than £79,999 but it really won’t make any difference worth noticing.

Yes, I know that mate, it was a point made mischievously, to elicit response, hence the... ;)

 

[Chippy_boy]

You’ll only get the additional tax being introduced on the penny that takes you to £80,000. Technically speaking you’re still better off on £80k than £79,999 but it really won’t make any difference worth noticing.

We have a pensions time bomb ticking in the UK, with millions of people getting older and not saving enough. So people should be encouraged to put more money into their pensions, to save for their old age and reduce their dependence on the state - would you agree?

At the moment you get full tax relief on your pension contributions of up to £40,000 a year (unless you earn more than £150,000, in which case you start to lose that benefit). So at the moment, anyone on £79,999 would be well advised to stick all of their pay increase into their pension and pay not 1p more in income tax. Ergo, the proposed changes will bring in nothing like the projected increases in tax receipts.

And if Corbyn starts to discourage pension saving by getting rid of the tax relief? How will doing that, help our pensions time bomb? Incidentally the time bomb which started ticking when Brown raided pensions to the tune of taking £200bn out of them in additional taxes.

 

[BobKowalski]

There is a median rate at which the level is optimised, at present it's 19%, with Brexit uncertainty,
there may well be reasons to keep it at the present level.
https://www.ft.com/content/ca3e5bd2-2a7e-11e7-9ec8-168383da43b7

Then again, it may just be a sop to counter the Labour intention of raising it, to assuage the more liberal vote.
All sorts of things are promised, many believe Labour's massive spending spree is undeliverable, I'm sure figures will
be out soon trashing it, and vice versa.

You would have thought the Business Sec would have been aware of that. Obviously not. And no it’s not a sop. Both parties are in tax and spend mode. Austerity is dead and Brexit will require increased State spending and the money has to come from somewhere.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

Numbers really aren't your strong point are they? What is I wonder.

"Tax Justice & PCS" - well they would know wouldn't they. Far better than the Inland Revenue, who actually deal with this stuff. And let's assume their £120bn figure is correct, just how much of that do you think is collectable? All of it? Not a chance.

But let's throw you your £120bn, just for giggles. And your inheritance tax changes - let's stop parents giving their kids a leg up on the housing ladder, great idea. Let's throw you that as well, and the nobbling the City by taking £5bn off them as well. And capital gains. We don't want people investing now, do we.

Still all of that leaves one dirty great big fucking hole in Labour's stated plans, let alone the Marxists' aspirations of government-owned EVERYTHING.

No, I am sorry, but current Labour thinking and policies are those of clowns, followed by clowns. You're in great company.

1) As i pointed out in my post... the difference between HMRS and Tax Justice and PCS figures is HMRC dont include the 'deals' that they do with big business. The Eu Tax avoidance directive and honouring the manifesto will stop these deals being done.

2) The Inheritance tax changes simply reverses the giveaway that has happened under the Tory government as do the changes to capital Gains tax

Where the flying Unicorn do you get the Government wants to own everything?

 

[Chippy_boy]

Wotever.
Anyway my story begins with a young idealistic science student in the 80s who is a bit unhappy with Thatcherism. He reads a book called neoliberalism for dummies which basically says that if you give rich people loads of money then the wealth trickles down to the poor. This informs his views in his adult life. When the Berlin wall falls in 1989 he is vindicated. Communism is defeated, capitalism has won. It is as Hegel once called the end of time. This is how the world will run for ever.
In the next episode we fast forward to 2019 when the western economy has undergone a banking colapse and is on life support with cheap money from central banks, countries have racked up massive debts and are fearing the next crash.
Our main character is visited by a person seeking to redistribute some of the wealth being horded by the rich to the poor. His name is Jeremiah Corbyn.
To be continued.

I thought Corbyn wanted to take us back to the 70's. The 1970's, not the 1870's. Marxism is dead mate. Dead as disco.

 

[Chippy_boy]

1) As i pointed out in my post... the difference between HMRS and Tax Justice and PCS figures is HMRC dont include the 'deals' that they do with big business. The Eu Tax avoidance directive and honouring the manifesto will stop these deals being done.

2) The Inheritance tax changes simply reverses the giveaway that has happened under the Tory government as do the changes to capital Gains tax

Where the flying Unicorn do you get the Government wants to own everything?

Do you know what Clause 4 is? It would seem not. And I am still waiting for the missing £370bn btw.

 

[bluethrunthru]

More Tory lies - Not So Cleverly surprisingly not falling back on his " it was a parody account " excuse - Twitter rightly outing them as a joke and a misrepresentation. They cannot be trusted.



Meanwhile Raab says its an instant rebuttal mechanism so at least they are keeping to form and having ministers give different answers to the same question

 

[The perfect fumble]

Marxism is dead mate. Dead as disco.

Whether you're a brother or whether you're a mother
You're stayin' alive, stayin' alive

 

[Ban-jani]

We have a pensions time bomb ticking in the UK, with millions of people getting older and not saving enough. So people should be encouraged to put more money into their pensions, to save for their old age and reduce their dependence on the state - would you agree?

I absolutely agree mate - in fact this is something I’m very passionate about.

I went to a fin tech event a couple of years ago and a guy had a great idea of retailers adding to your pension instead of the 99p off next time you shop scheme you get at boots.

It obviously hasn’t got much further but I liked the idea.

We are fucked with pensions and my generation are particularly terrible at it.

I put about £300-£500 a month in, including company contribution now, as I know how much of a big issue this is.

 

[Two Gun Bob]

If the bar was raised to 80k then I would stay below 80k for reasons of principle.

 

[Chippy_boy]

I absolutely agree mate - in fact this is something I’m very passionate about.

I went to a fin tech event a couple of years ago and a guy had a great idea of retailers adding to your pension instead of the 99p off next time you shop scheme you get at boots.

It obviously hasn’t got much further but I liked the idea.

We are fucked with pensions and my generation are particularly terrible at it.

I put about £300-£500 a month in, including company contribution now, as I know how much of a big issue this is.

Agreed. The key is to start early, which is obviously a struggle when people are struggling already with housing, car, kids etc costs. I didn't save enough in my earlier years and now at 58 am trying to put every penny I can aside, but of course I will get little growth on that before retirement now. If only I had put a hundred or so a month in when I was in my 20's and 30's, it would have made a big difference.

 

[Chippy_boy]

You would have thought the Business Sec would have been aware of that. Obviously not. And no it’s not a sop. Both parties are in tax and spend mode. Austerity is dead and Brexit will require increased State spending and the money has to come from somewhere.

Labour lies: Don't worry, it can come from "other people".

 

[Ban-jani]

Agreed. The key is to start early, which is obviously a struggle when people are struggling already with housing, car, kids etc costs. I didn't save enough in my earlier years and now at 58 am trying to put every penny I can aside, but of course I will get little growth on that before retirement now. If only I had put a hundred or so a month in when I was in my 20's and 30's, it would have made a big difference.

It would have absolutely and that’s why I’m forcing myself to put more in.

At my age it’s easy to think “well the world will change and x thing could make your pension redundant, even early death, so just enjoy yourself now” but the reality is I will probably be very reliant on it when I’m in my 70’s and it’s madness to not put significant sums away.

 

[Len Rum]

Dog shit and ‘get them out’!

"Get 'em out"
Just about sums up Brexit.

 

[mcfc1632]

If you said those taxes raised £500bn to pay for spending then fair enough but they don't.

So where will the missing £495bn deficit come from to pay for the rest of Labour's spending?

What are we missing?.....

Other taxes?

The old magician trick of making people focus on one thing whilst the real change is going on unnoticed?

 

[The perfect fumble]

"Get 'em out"
Just about sums up Brexit.

You old lefty cynic!

Trust Boris! Get Brexit done and everything will be alright.

 

[abu13]

No.... because that immediately alienates a large number of the electorate.

The Tories ignore the wishes of 16.8 million who voted remain ...... The Lib Dems ignore the wishes of the 17.4 million who voted leave. The Labour party are the only party attempting to find a solution that will bring both sides together.

Corbyn cant answer wether he would vote to Leave or Remain because Labour have not yet renegotiated an agreement with the Eu and in any event his personal view is not relevant. The decision will be made when we are told the truth about any new withdrawal agreement and how it would impact or remain.

Fair point, it just seems to be damaging the party so much at the moment.

 

[inbetween]

Other taxes?

The old magician trick of making people focus on one thing whilst the real change is going on unnoticed?

Labour were committed to a fiscal credibility rule in their 2017 manifesto meaning they would balance the deficit in the next Parliament.

If they are keeping this rule then it is inevitable that general taxation (NI, fuel duty, VAT etc) are all going to go up MASSIVELY.

You just cannot pay out £200-£500bn and pay for it with modest tax increases on the rich, impossible. Even tightening taxation on the rich for example by stopping avoidance/evasion will not raise that amount of money.

Of course the other answer is they are going to borrow it (breaks their credibility rule) OR they will print the money instead.

If it's the latter and they print money then their other plans like minimum wage increases, 4 day week etc are completely and totally pointless because of inflation. You then probably have a collapsing £ and interest rate rises which will bankrupt half the country.

This is why Labour are so dangerous.