Var debate 2019/20

[SVP]

Calm Down, Calm Down

eh eh eh

 

[Rammy Blue]

I was wondering today, and thought this would be the best place to ask, but do we have any guys on here who watch lots of other European leagues’ football and could enlighten me/us with how the offside rule is being dealt with by VAR - do they have the daft lines being drawn and use the armpit rule etc etc.

 

[Paladin]

Cheers mate! That is truly a brilliant answer, and judging by some of the responses I have gotten today, maybe more than I deserve lol

Firstly, I was totally unaware of this. I was absolutely positive the letter of the law had been changed to disallow every goal with a handball, intentional or unintentional, in the build up. This is why I have been vocal about criticising the law, and not VAR for enforcing it. Now, you will of course find me in total agreement. The definition of the law that you have linked to here, is something I agree with entirely. And considering what they have done is by definition bending the laws, or even ignoring it, I of course agree that this needs to be questioned.

What I won't change my mind on though, and tbf you haven't argued with me on that point either, is linking this bending of the law to make a argument for obvious corruption. That is what I have mostly taken issue with. If this kind of selective interpretation of the law was restricted to only us, sure, but it has been the narrative for the whole league. As I said it has been consistently bad, but it has been consistent. Consistently wrong perhaps is a better phrase now. But, still I disagree with the notion that it has been used consistently wrong against us and only us.

Anyway, thanks for the informative post and cheers for the compliment:)

My own opinion is that it is not deliberately against City, but it is deliberately favouring certain teams. I think Liverpool and to a lesser extent Spurs are the main beneficiaries this season. Everyone else suffers at some point. Both these clubs are considered big clubs, and neither has won the PL.

This is in keeping with the narrative that someone at the PL said that they wanted a new winner of the PL every few years. Also that a strong Manchester United is good for the brand. It tells me that the footballing authorities are prepared to favour certain teams because it will ultimately increase their revenues. And when businesses have the opportunity to manipulate the rules in order to increase their revenues, they have been known to succumb to this temptation.

We have seen this corruption at UEFA, FIFA, in Italian football, other leagues, and plenty of other sports. I think there is a real possibility that we are witnessing it here this season. (For what it's worth, last season also, but City were just too good for it to deliver the desired outcome).

Implementing their objectives doesn't even have to be by direct instruction. It can be achieved by subtle means. For example by appointing a referee with favourable tendencies towards a desired club could skew the outcome of certain games. Let's take for instance Michael Oliver, who is one of our top referees. He has refereed a number of City games including City v Spurs, where we lost two points. Also Liverpool v City, where a number of marginal decisions went against City. He has also officiated some Liverpool games, where they benefited from a number of close decisions. Or consider Anthony Taylor, who comes from a family of United fans, even though he claims to be an Altrincham fan. You would not be surprised to see a bias in favour of United from Taylor, not necessarily because of any unprofessionalism on his part, but maybe subliminally, he tends to make decisions that would satisfy his relatives. Oliver has relatives that are Liverpool fans incidentally.

 

[BlueHammer85]

You don’t just see thinks different to me you make stuff up , you lie to suit your pathetic defence of var compared with the old system , a system that by & large did a good job for 150 years .
Var was brought in by the premier league so they can have a hand in who wins & who doesn’t ......its killed the flow of the game & the celebration of goals is now stunted while we wait for a decision from some so called expert miles away , enjoy your ‘new ‘ football but there’ll be thousands like me who fuck it off, but you’ll be right won’t you.

lie ? Seriously. What have I lied about ???

‘‘the old system that by and large did a good job’’

Wow. So you were ok with refs giving pens to Liverpool last season when Salah was diving, you were happy with the old system of Man Utd and the rest scoring goals offside ? Because obviously it was just human error before and no corruption. Righty o.

 

[BlueHammer85]

Of course you would as you have nailed your colours to the VAR mast and would look a bit of a tit to back down now..

!

Go back and read my posts on VAR and see if I’ve nailed my colours to the mast. So many times I’ve mentioned why I DISLIKE VAR and why it has a long way to improve - all I do consistently say is that it should be the way forward ... because in my opinion reverting back to the refs blind guessing leads to more incorrect decisions and if corruption exists then it’s far easier for officials to flag or disallow goal whenever they felt like it.
so please just understand - I’m not a VAR lover , I just want refs to have technological help so we don’t have farcical decisions made - VAR is a step in the right direction but it has many flaws and a long way to go.

 

[mat]

The Premier League will propose to all member clubs a rebranding of the VAR system next season. Several clubs, including Manchester City have demanded more transparency from PGMOL over controversial decisions made using the system. Sources inside the PL say they will rename the system LAR. It's full title being Liverpool Assisting Referee. The idea being this will clear up any further confusion.

 

[the_tevez_wiggle]

Got to admit after a few of the last few seasons I was all for VAR.
The last utd prem win where they kept winning 1-0 last min pens and goals.
When dippers ran us all the way last season with mane & salah dives. All the offside goals.
That Tottenham match where they should & could of had atleast 3/4 reds for horrific tackles. We then went on a run of games where seriously bad tackles injured our players and no reds were given.
Micah pen, ball off his thigh onto his hand. Sterling jumps, turns his back, hits back of his arm whilst not looking and yep a pen.
So in my wisdom I thought no more dives (wrong eg mane), no more offsides (correct but tight offsides can be manipulated either way) no more dodgy handballs (wrong they just search for an infringement before giving or not giving handball. Red card decisions (wrong)

So yeah I was wrong and I apologise for arguing with others about it. Call me naive or stupid, whatever I genuinely didnt see this as a tool to influence games.

 

[RyanP3609]

I was wondering today, and thought this would be the best place to ask, but do we have any guys on here who watch lots of other European leagues’ football and could enlighten me/us with how the offside rule is being dealt with by VAR - do they have the daft lines being drawn and use the armpit rule etc etc.

Nah they don't (as far as I have seen anyways).

I was watching CF America vs CF Monterrey in the mexican league last night as I couldn't sleep. America had two goals disallowed in the first half (as well as there being one if not two (I cant fully remember) pen decisions, all in the first half) that were checked by VAR. One of the goals was disallowed for offside (and no line was drawn at all and looked borderline) then another was given for a handball in the build up (far more passes compared to the Van Dijk handball against Wolves), each time the ref stopped play, and for the majority of them checked the pitch side monitor before making the decision.

They all appeared to be the correct decision and they were all done far quicker than VAR decisions are done here (us vs Liverpool aside when VAR was "seemingly" done before the ball had hit the net for the offside!)

European league wise I only watch it intermittently and it's mainly Barca/a top Italian game, all of which from memory use the pitch side monitor.

It's easy as fuck to sort VAR, force the refs to use the pitchside monitor and mic up the refs (like in rugby/NFL and its played in the stadium too so everyone knows what's going on).

But theyll never do that cos they cant work the narrative in their own interests then, can they!?

 

[Bill the Blue]

Go back and read my posts on VAR and see if I’ve nailed my colours to the mast. So many times I’ve mentioned why I DISLIKE VAR and why it has a long way to improve - all I do consistently say is that it should be the way forward ... because in my opinion reverting back to the refs blind guessing leads to more incorrect decisions and if corruption exists then it’s far easier for officials to flag or disallow goal whenever they felt like it.
so please just understand - I’m not a VAR lover , I just want refs to have technological help so we don’t have farcical decisions made - VAR is a step in the right direction but it has many flaws and a long way to go.

I've read your posts and like I said, you've nailed your colours as far as I'm concerned..

I wouldn't have said it if I didn't think it.

You rambled on about what if Sergio's goal had been flagged for a foul or offside, it wasn't though was it so don't understand where you're going with 'if my auntie had balls' analagy..

You said VAR is now insuring they get all the marginal decisions correct the majority of the time regarding Liverpool..

Did you see our recent game there?

Do you think VAR got all the marginal decisions correct in that game concerning Liverpool?

You still stand by your comments?

Like I said, you've backed yourself into a corner and would embarrass yourself to change your opinion now so have got to press on peddling how wonderful VAR is and how Liverpool are treated like every other team in the Premier League..!

 

[the talisman]

Got to admit after a few of the last few seasons I was all for VAR.
The last utd prem win where they kept winning 1-0 last min pens and goals.
When dippers ran us all the way last season with mane & salah dives. All the offside goals.
That Tottenham match where they should & could of had atleast 3/4 reds for horrific tackles. We then went on a run of games where seriously bad tackles injured our players and no reds were given.
Micah pen, ball off his thigh onto his hand. Sterling jumps, turns his back, hits back of his arm whilst not looking and yep a pen.
So in my wisdom I thought no more dives (wrong eg mane), no more offsides (correct but tight offsides can be manipulated either way) no more dodgy handballs (wrong they just search for an infringement before giving or not giving handball. Red card decisions (wrong)

So yeah I was wrong and I apologise for arguing with others about it. Call me naive or stupid, whatever I genuinely didnt see this as a tool to influence games.

My thoughts exactly. I was saying to someone the other day how stupid I feel now, I genuinely thought it would benefit us by making the game more fair.
I don’t know what the answer is, we seem to get shafted with or without VAR.

 

[ScottSinclair]

My own opinion is that it is not deliberately against City, but it is deliberately favouring certain teams. I think Liverpool and to a lesser extent Spurs are the main beneficiaries this season. Everyone else suffers at some point. Both these clubs are considered big clubs, and neither has won the PL.

This is in keeping with the narrative that someone at the PL said that they wanted a new winner of the PL every few years. Also that a strong Manchester United is good for the brand. It tells me that the footballing authorities are prepared to favour certain teams because it will ultimately increase their revenues. And when businesses have the opportunity to manipulate the rules in order to increase their revenues, they have been known to succumb to this temptation.

We have seen this corruption at UEFA, FIFA, in Italian football, other leagues, and plenty of other sports. I think there is a real possibility that we are witnessing it here this season. (For what it's worth, last season also, but City were just too good for it to deliver the desired outcome).

Implementing their objectives doesn't even have to be by direct instruction. It can be achieved by subtle means. For example by appointing a referee with favourable tendencies towards a desired club could skew the outcome of certain games. Let's take for instance Michael Oliver, who is one of our top referees. He has refereed a number of City games including City v Spurs, where we lost two points. Also Liverpool v City, where a number of marginal decisions went against City. He has also officiated some Liverpool games, where they benefited from a number of close decisions. Or consider Anthony Taylor, who comes from a family of United fans, even though he claims to be an Altrincham fan. You would not be surprised to see a bias in favour of United from Taylor, not necessarily because of any unprofessionalism on his part, but maybe subliminally, he tends to make decisions that would satisfy his relatives. Oliver has relatives that are Liverpool fans incidentally.

Another good post.

I will agree on the fact that as long as there is humans behind the decisions, there will always be risks of impartiality blurring the lines of right and wrong. And as you say, it might be subliminally. I, as you might have understood already lol, thinks it's humans being flawed by nature rather than a planned conspiracy.

I do believe either way, VAR is a step in the right direction. As you say the law has been creatively exploited to suit their agenda(imo it's to make it easier for them to make a decision). Atleast with VAR it forces them to be consistent with it. It also helps highlight the bad ways it's used.
There has never been more focus on refereeing than after VAR got introduced. I think this will in time make VAR a very good tool, but if they continue to make stupid decisions, we the fans, the media, social media everyone needs to continue to put pressure on for them to make it as good and fair as possible.

Labelling it as a tool for blatant corruption, is imo a bit misguided.

 

[BlueHammer85]

I've read your posts and like I said, you've nailed your colours as far as I'm concerned..

I wouldn't have said it if I didn't think it.

You rambled on about what if Sergio's goal had been flagged for a foul or offside, it wasn't though was it so don't understand where you're going with 'if my auntie had balls' analagy..

You said VAR is now insuring they get all the marginal decisions correct the majority of the time regarding Liverpool..

Did you see our recent game there?

Do you think VAR got all the marginal decisions correct in that game concerning Liverpool?

You still stand by your comments?

Like I said, you've backed yourself into a corner and would embarrass yourself to change your opinion now so have got to press on peddling how wonderful VAR is and how Liverpool are treated like every other team in the Premier League..!

then you’ve clearly not read history of my posts on this subject or just purposely ignoring how many times I’ve stated my dislike for some parts of VAR. I’ve absolutely got nothing to be ‘embarrassed’ about, I don’t live in a world of thinking everything’s a conspiracy- I just don’t want players getting away with cheating and diving and clear offside goals being allowed to stand. That is all. That’s all I want. If we can have technological help towards that then I’m all for it. VAR is shit at times but it’s a start. Ffs how can that be a unreasonable position to take ?

I think the Aguero analogy is a fair one - if officials are corrupt, on that day they could have flagged it offside and denied you the title - would you seriously not had wished for some technological proof that could be given to the ref to prove it was miles onside ? I know it’s a made up example but without going mad and being abusive try and give a rational answer as this is a VAR debate.

We can debate each individual Liverpool decision if you like and I do admit they’ve had the rub of the green on many occasions- but sometimes i genuinely think the margins are so tight I can see why it could be one way or the other - also their seems to be a lot of anger when Liverpool have a decision in their favour which turns out to be correct when it was correct ! For example it looked like Lallana handballed in the lead up to the goal the other day - yet VAR clearly shows it wasn’t a handball- then there is uproar about how VAR is ‘once again’ favouring Liverpool - fair enough on marginal decisions that sway their way - but on clear black and white decisions that are correct people still go mad.

By way, if you’re really interested you can go back on my previous posts and see how much I despise Liverpool and was desperate for City to win the title.

When it comes to VAR I just try to be a bit rational, don’t jump on the corruption bandwagon and prey we can find a better solution than before of officials being left to blind guessing with no help.

I think I answer fairly, honestly and never abuse anyone on this topic but guess if you hate VAR and are convinced it’s all to do with corruption then anything I say is met with scorn. So that’s me done on this topic for a while. Happy new year bud.

 

[the talisman]

I've read your posts and like I said, you've nailed your colours as far as I'm concerned..

I wouldn't have said it if I didn't think it.

You rambled on about what if Sergio's goal had been flagged for a foul or offside, it wasn't though was it so don't understand where you're going with 'if my auntie had balls' analagy..

You said VAR is now insuring they get all the marginal decisions correct the majority of the time regarding Liverpool..

Did you see our recent game there?

Do you think VAR got all the marginal decisions correct in that game concerning Liverpool?

You still stand by your comments?

Like I said, you've backed yourself into a corner and would embarrass yourself to change your opinion now so have got to press on peddling how wonderful VAR is and how Liverpool are treated like every other team in the Premier League..!

Spot on. Not even a liverpool fan could justify what happened at anfield. As clear a pen as you will ever see, not given.
To compound it they let the handball set up the 1st goal, changed the game completely.
I see they were at it again vs wolves, a handball goal given to Liverpool and a Wolves goal disallowed by an invisible offside.

 

[the talisman]

then you’ve clearly not read history of my posts on this subject or just purposely ignoring how many times I’ve stated my dislike for some parts of VAR. I’ve absolutely got nothing to be ‘embarrassed’ about, I don’t live in a world of thinking everything’s a conspiracy- I just don’t want players getting away with cheating and diving and clear offside goals being allowed to stand. That is all. That’s all I want. If we can have technological help towards that then I’m all for it. VAR is shit at times but it’s a start. Ffs how can that be a unreasonable position to take ?

I think the Aguero analogy is a fair one - if officials are corrupt, on that day they could have flagged it offside and denied you the title - would you seriously not had wished for some technological proof that could be given to the ref to prove it was miles onside ? I know it’s a made up example but without going mad and being abusive try and give a rational answer as this is a VAR debate.

We can debate each individual Liverpool decision if you like and I do admit they’ve had the rub of the green on many occasions- but sometimes i genuinely think the margins are so tight I can see why it could be one way or the other - also their seems to be a lot of anger when Liverpool have a decision in their favour which turns out to be correct when it was correct ! For example it looked like Lallana handballed in the lead up to the goal the other day - yet VAR clearly shows it wasn’t a handball- then there is uproar about how VAR is ‘once again’ favouring Liverpool - fair enough on marginal decisions that sway their way - but on clear black and white decisions that are correct people still go mad.

By way, if you’re really interested you can go back on my previous posts and see how much I despise Liverpool and was desperate for City to win the title.

When it comes to VAR I just try to be a bit rational, don’t jump on the corruption bandwagon and prey we can find a better solution than before of officials being left to blind guessing with no help.

I think I answer fairly, honestly and never abuse anyone on this topic but guess if you hate VAR and are convinced it’s all to do with corruption then anything I say is met with scorn. So that’s me done on this topic for a while. Happy new year bud.

Going on about the Aguero moment is not the best argument. You probably don’t remember it as well as us ;-)
He was miles onside, there were about half a dozen QPR players around the 6 yard box and Sergio was on the edge of the penalty area.

 

[ScottSinclair]

Going on about the Aguero moment is not the best argument. You probably don’t remember it as well as us ;-)
He was miles onside, there were about half a dozen QPR players around the 6 yard box and Sergio was on the edge of the penalty area.

His point is that a corrupt official could easily have prevented us from winning if he wanted.

 

[greasedupdeafguy]

The negatives were always gonna outweigh the positives for me. I reckon the offside rule will be adapted to VAR but the fact remains that fans will never be able to truly celebrate due the thought of it being cancelled out, will forever hurt the game imo.

Also VAR was never really gonna make the game 'fair'. On Sunday night I'm pretty sure Sheffield United got a corner from an attack which was clearly offside. If they scored from that corner would it have been ruled out? Nope.

 

[mat]

 

[the talisman]

His point is that a corrupt official could easily have prevented us from winning if he wanted.

I know. My point was it would have been so ridiculous that it would have been a bigger story than us winning the league in the 94th minute.
So it wouldn’t have been “easy” at all, it would probably have ended careers.

 

[Busser]

Where did the Liverpool thread disappear?

Here's my reponse to a Liverpool fan pretending the be a City fan.

"I don't think you are a City fan, but I shall respond. Your answers are unconvincing.

You argue that "they were afftected by VAR as much as us". How? By listing several decisions against Liverpool most of which correct. Problem is there have been numerous favourable decisons for Liverpool and not one for City before last night. There is a clear discrepance between the favourable decisions for both clubs and your response doesn't explain it away at all.

You don't explain the Christmas fixture schedule, you don't make sense of itl. Why? Because you can't. It's in Liverpool's favour, no two ways about it. Instead you are trying to deflect the point by arguing that City had easier fixtures at the start of the season and easier fixtures in the cups. But this argument isn't convincing either. First, the cup draws and the fixture schedule in the league are supposed to be completely independent, it's not like PL has compensated City for the Christmas schedule with favourable draws in the league cup and the CL. It's not like the PL has decided City to have easier fixtures at the start and to compensate Liverpool with easier fixture schedule at Christmas. It doesn't work like that at all. Second, to have a number of consecutive league games against top 6 teams when the CL groups are decided (November and December) is not obviously beneficial. Third, last season City lost 3 games against average/poor teams and only one game against a top 6 team. The notion of easy and difficult fixtures does not quite apply when it comes to City.

Basically, you have no anaswer to why the PL has made it easy for Liverpool around Christmas and you have no response why City haven't had favourable decisions during the first half of the season. There is a clear tendency of helping Liverpool win their 1st PL title and not let City win several league titles in a row and damage the brand. I suppose next season they will help Man U or Chelsea or whoever seems capable of challenging for the title."

Hey man, I think you are talking about my response. Ok let's do this.

You say there a a few favourable decisions againts liverpool, which one? State your data facts like I did, I cant even argue your point because you didnt state anything.

How is FA making it easier for Liverpool when they had to travel to Dubai and play againts Aston villa? No help from anyone there.

The fact I'm talking about schedule, group stages is because if how much it favoured us and how we didnt take advantage of.

Like my post, I agree, liverpool had their break for Christmas, as opposed to us, who had an easier opponents in the first half of season and we didnt travel to dubai play a cup semi final and final and come back to play a team who is 2nd on the table. All within 5 days. But wait, they did get another day rest, the only advantage I'm seeing so far.

Remember last season, they only lost one game and was only 1 point different from us. They won CL. Without VAR. How can we conclude that this season is helped by VAR?

Also, which decision went againts us? We need to stop this conspiracy theories man and focus on us. We lost 5 games, how many because of liverpool? 1. We are clutching at straws he man. Just gasping at every opportunity to lay blame at everyone else but us.

 

[Barcon]

Hey man, I think you are talking about my response. Ok let's do this.

You say there a a few favourable decisions againts liverpool, which one? State your data facts like I did, I cant even argue your point because you didnt state anything.

How is FA making it easier for Liverpool when they had to travel to Dubai and play againts Aston villa? No help from anyone there.

The fact I'm talking about schedule, group stages is because if how much it favoured us and how we didnt take advantage of.

Like my post, I agree, liverpool had their break for Christmas, as opposed to us, who had an easier opponents in the first half of season and we didnt travel to dubai play a cup semi final and final and come back to play a team who is 2nd on the table. All within 5 days. But wait, they did get another day rest, the only advantage I'm seeing so far.

Remember last season, they only lost one game and was only 1 point different from us. They won CL. Without VAR. How can we conclude that this season is helped by VAR?

Also, which decision went againts us? We need to stop this conspiracy theories man and focus on us. We lost 5 games, how many because of liverpool? 1. We are clutching at straws he man. Just gasping at every opportunity to lay blame at everyone else but us.

Were you posting on here under the name TikiTaka last week?