Another new Brexit thread

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mcfc1632 said:
The upshot of that is that you were (thankfully) wrong about how things worked out and utterly wrong to express the levels of certainty that you did - "events dear boy...."

All the rest of your post is simply repeating previous doom-mongering statements - which, given your track record, please understand if they are not seen as so scary by Leavers as you see them.

In fact - given where we are - you should be firmly hoping that you are proved wrong again
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I call it as I see it. I did predict we wouldn't leave, and 3 dates came and went, but nothing in politics can be certain beyond general elections - especially not ones that produce such massive shifts of the political dial. The 2019 election is seen as the demise of Corbyn - but of far more significance is the shift of the tory party to a populist right wing party.

The problem with populism is its based on uniformed, prejudiced opinions as opposed to reasoned evidence based policy. A good chunk of this country have been fed anti EU bollocks for years and that was the underlying driver for wanting to leave. Everything blamed on the EU/immigration and the idea we can just switch to a simple FTA that will solve many of our problems is taken as gospel.

As you say events. Brexit will be a disaster for our economy, even if we get the FTA that you are all hanging your hat on. Any deal is going to be far more nuanced that the level of tariffs, free or otherwise. There will be regulatory barriers and there will be customs barriers to trade, add to that the loss of access to the EU global trade deals and the fact we have to replicate all the EU institutions with our own bureaucracy and we are significantly worse of. There is no upside, the global trade deals are set to be net worse for our global trade for at least the next 10 years and 50 years is as good a guess as any as to when we might have reach parity with what we have given up. There is no upside to any of this. Its a lesson we are determined to learn the hard way.
 
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Gaudion M said:
I call it as I see it. I did predict we wouldn't leave, and 3 dates came and went, but nothing in politics can be certain beyond general elections - especially not ones that produce such massive shifts of the political dial. The 2019 election is seen as the demise of Corbyn - but of far more significance is the shift of the tory party to a populist right wing party.

The problem with populism is its based on uniformed, prejudiced opinions as opposed to reasoned evidence based policy. A good chunk of this country have been fed anti EU bollocks for years and that was the underlying driver for wanting to leave. Everything blamed on the EU/immigration and the idea we can just switch to a simple FTA that will solve many of our problems is taken as gospel.

As you say events. Brexit will be a disaster for our economy, even if we get the FTA that you are all hanging your hat on. Any deal is going to be far more nuanced that the level of tariffs, free or otherwise. There will be regulatory barriers and there will be customs barriers to trade, add to that the loss of access to the EU global trade deals and the fact we have to replicate all the EU institutions with our own bureaucracy and we are significantly worse of. There is no upside, the global trade deals are set to be net worse for our global trade for at least the next 10 years and 50 years is as good a guess as any as to when we might have reach parity with what we have given up. There is no upside to any of this. Its a lesson we are determined to learn the hard way.
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You omitted the bit about 'nationalism' .... wrapping yourself in a flag and talking about the Dunkirk spirit & how we beat the Germans (two world wars and one world cup) ... how things were never 'like this in the old days' and how everything went down hill because 'of the forrins' ... How you cant get an appointment at the doctors any more , roads are clogged, schools overcrowded , because of the 'Forrins' .... how the 'true brits' go out on St Georges day to celebrate naked from the waist up showing their racist tattoos , making nazi salutes outside the Shambles in a city where the people went on strike to support the slaves and the Union in the American Civil War


It was never about sovereignty (we always had that), the ability to make our own laws (we always did that) or the ability to do trade deals (we always had that) it was always about ' the forrins' they just won't admit it
 
Gaudion M said:
I call it as I see it. I did predict we wouldn't leave, and 3 dates came and went, but nothing in politics can be certain beyond general elections - especially not ones that produce such massive shifts of the political dial. The 2019 election is seen as the demise of Corbyn - but of far more significance is the shift of the tory party to a populist right wing party.

The problem with populism is its based on uniformed, prejudiced opinions as opposed to reasoned evidence based policy. A good chunk of this country have been fed anti EU bollocks for years and that was the underlying driver for wanting to leave. Everything blamed on the EU/immigration and the idea we can just switch to a simple FTA that will solve many of our problems is taken as gospel.

As you say events. Brexit will be a disaster for our economy, even if we get the FTA that you are all hanging your hat on. Any deal is going to be far more nuanced that the level of tariffs, free or otherwise. There will be regulatory barriers and there will be customs barriers to trade, add to that the loss of access to the EU global trade deals and the fact we have to replicate all the EU institutions with our own bureaucracy and we are significantly worse of. There is no upside, the global trade deals are set to be net worse for our global trade for at least the next 10 years and 50 years is as good a guess as any as to when we might have reach parity with what we have given up. There is no upside to any of this. Its a lesson we are determined to learn the hard way.
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The problem with popularism is its so popular and people who don't agree with you still get,a vote. I'm not sure why this is and realy feel for you as I have the same at home with the wife dictating what's on TV. Everyone is entitled to an opinion obviously, as long as they acknowledge that you are right.
 
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Ifwecouldjust....... said:
You omitted the bit about 'nationalism' .... wrapping yourself in a flag and talking about the Dunkirk spirit & how we beat the Germans (two world wars and one world cup) ... how things were never 'like this in the old days' and how everything went down hill because 'of the forrins' ... How you cant get an appointment at the doctors any more , roads are clogged, schools overcrowded , because of the 'Forrins' .... how the 'true brits' go out on St Georges day to celebrate naked from the waist up showing their racist tattoos , making nazi salutes outside the Shambles in a city where the people went on strike to support the slaves and the Union in the American Civil War


It was never about sovereignty (we always had that), the ability to make our own laws (we always did that) or the ability to do trade deals (we always had that) it was always about ' the forrins' they just won't admit it
Click to expand...

Dont forget to check under your bed before you go to sleep tonight.
 
Gaudion M said:
I think you are projecting what you want to see happen there. The EZ countries are way past the point of no return, and even if they were not there is no significant anti EU sentiment growing. There is some but it has always been there. How it shifts will depend on what happens to us and we will get a shit deal that damages our economy so that will be the end of it for a generation. I would make some exceptions for the Eastern European states. Hungary could be thrown out over the next 12 months. That will also be a bad move for them and would serve as a warning to some others that could go the same way.
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I can't see us getting a shit deal for two reasons. Firstly the EU is a benign organisation and not intent on malicious action such as this. Secondly, EU membership is surely so wonderful that even if we get a good deal other nations will still not want to leave? The way you frame it makes it sound almost as if the EU is some sort of federalist dictator that would try through the threat of a bad deal to coerce countries into remaining.
 
Gaudion M said:
I call it as I see it. I did predict we wouldn't leave, and 3 dates came and went, but nothing in politics can be certain beyond general elections - especially not ones that produce such massive shifts of the political dial. The 2019 election is seen as the demise of Corbyn - but of far more significance is the shift of the tory party to a populist right wing party.

The problem with populism is its based on uniformed, prejudiced opinions as opposed to reasoned evidence based policy. A good chunk of this country have been fed anti EU bollocks for years and that was the underlying driver for wanting to leave. Everything blamed on the EU/immigration and the idea we can just switch to a simple FTA that will solve many of our problems is taken as gospel.

As you say events. Brexit will be a disaster for our economy, even if we get the FTA that you are all hanging your hat on. Any deal is going to be far more nuanced that the level of tariffs, free or otherwise. There will be regulatory barriers and there will be customs barriers to trade, add to that the loss of access to the EU global trade deals and the fact we have to replicate all the EU institutions with our own bureaucracy and we are significantly worse of. There is no upside, the global trade deals are set to be net worse for our global trade for at least the next 10 years and 50 years is as good a guess as any as to when we might have reach parity with what we have given up. There is no upside to any of this. Its a lesson we are determined to learn the hard way.
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Calling it as you see it all seems very reasonable, but you did a lot more than that and you continue to do so.

You were insistent that those that expressed an alternative view were utterly wrong and you were were highly dismissive and offensive in your tone.

You should - I humbly suggest - undertake a period of reflection as the simple facts are...….

  • That you were proven wrong
  • The Leavers on here were proven to be correct - in the build up to the referendum and at all stages since - and, I suggest, that is highly likely to be the case again.
But do you? - no - you carry on stating your certainty despite your track record.

Speaking for one of those that have been proven to be correct - forgive me for not overly caring about your 'statements of certainty'

There is a phrase; "...when you are in a hole....."

Oh and BTW - what is this ".....even if we get the FTA that you are all hanging your hat on."???

I cannot recall hanging any hat on any such FTA - the opposite if anything
 
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Ifwecouldjust....... said:
You omitted the bit about 'nationalism' .... wrapping yourself in a flag and talking about the Dunkirk spirit & how we beat the Germans (two world wars and one world cup) ... how things were never 'like this in the old days' and how everything went down hill because 'of the forrins' ... How you cant get an appointment at the doctors any more , roads are clogged, schools overcrowded , because of the 'Forrins' .... how the 'true brits' go out on St Georges day to celebrate naked from the waist up showing their racist tattoos , making nazi salutes outside the Shambles in a city where the people went on strike to support the slaves and the Union in the American Civil War


It was never about sovereignty (we always had that), the ability to make our own laws (we always did that) or the ability to do trade deals (we always had that) it was always about ' the forrins' they just won't admit it
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Fuck me - do you ever stop to consider how you make yourself look when you post such utter bollocks???

BTW - that was a rhetorical question;-)
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
I can't see us getting a shit deal for two reasons. Firstly the EU is a benign organisation and not intent on malicious action such as this. Secondly, EU membership is surely so wonderful that even if we get a good deal other nations will still not want to leave? The way you frame it makes it sound almost as if the EU is some sort of federalist dictator that would try through the threat of a bad deal to coerce countries into remaining.
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Bingo ;)
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
I can't see us getting a shit deal for two reasons. Firstly the EU is a benign organisation and not intent on malicious action such as this. Secondly, EU membership is surely so wonderful that even if we get a good deal other nations will still not want to leave? The way you frame it makes it sound almost as if the EU is some sort of federalist dictator that would try through the threat of a bad deal to coerce countries into remaining.
Click to expand...


The EU will look after its own .... it will solve the unemployment problem created by Covid19 by increasing production and selling both internally and externally under trade agreements that they dont have to negotiate ... there is nothing that the UK produces or manufactures that they cant make themselves ...and avoid the protracted negotiations , customs checks , collection of tariffs, quality checks etc

The virus is the game changer
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
You omitted the bit about 'nationalism' .... wrapping yourself in a flag and talking about the Dunkirk spirit & how we beat the Germans (two world wars and one world cup) ... how things were never 'like this in the old days' and how everything went down hill because 'of the forrins' ... How you cant get an appointment at the doctors any more , roads are clogged, schools overcrowded , because of the 'Forrins' .... how the 'true brits' go out on St Georges day to celebrate naked from the waist up showing their racist tattoos , making nazi salutes outside the Shambles in a city where the people went on strike to support the slaves and the Union in the American Civil War


It was never about sovereignty (we always had that), the ability to make our own laws (we always did that) or the ability to do trade deals (we always had that) it was always about ' the forrins' they just won't admit it
Click to expand...
We didn't have the ability to do trade deals, the EU did them on our behalf sometimes to our detriment, as I have already eluded to previously its all pat each others EU backs when everything is running smoothly however when its going wrong everything goes out of the window as we see now with much more turbulence coming in the very near future.
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
The EU will look after its own .... it will solve the unemployment problem created by Covid19 by increasing production and selling both internally and externally under trade agreements that they dont have to negotiate ... there is nothing that the UK produces or manufactures that they cant make themselves ...and avoid the protracted negotiations , customs checks , collection of tariffs, quality checks etc

The virus is the game changer
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You do realise before Covid-19, Italy, Spain, Portugal all had horrendous unemployment figures and have for years, why didn't the EU sort them out before that ?
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
The EU will look after its own .... it will solve the unemployment problem created by Covid19 by increasing production and selling both internally and externally under trade agreements that they dont have to negotiate ... there is nothing that the UK produces or manufactures that they cant make themselves ...and avoid the protracted negotiations , customs checks , collection of tariffs, quality checks etc

The virus is the game changer
Click to expand...
The virus like every other Socio Economic woe to appear in the news is touted by Remainers as a reason to remain. It's all bollocks. EU membership costs us far more than we get in return even if it's nowhere near the famous figure on the side of a bus. The only factual change that the virus has brought about within the EU to date is a hike in the budget for the next seven years with a dictated austerity budget to the poorer states in return for loans and a bigger bill to the net contributors. These are facts, and the whole thing is in danger of going tits up as Spain and Italy are now stuffed and it's down to France and Germany in the absence of the UK to prop up the continent - no wonder there's talk of chucking out some poor countries. The sums just don't work anymore and covid is exposing the con.
 
Bovril said:
You do realise before Covid-19, Italy, Spain, Portugal all had horrendous unemployment figures and have for years, why didn't the EU sort them out before that ?
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We hid ours behind zero hours contracts mate ... and forcing kids to stay in education till 18 (not an Eu policy) ..... Europe is stating correct figures ... here in the UK we're playing card games ....
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
We hid ours behind zero hours contracts mate ... and forcing kids to stay in education till 18 (not an Eu policy) ..... Europe is stating correct figures ... here in the UK we're playing card games ....
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I think you will find most EU countries stay in school until 18, Germany definitely do as my daughter had to stay until then. Can you point me to your source that we hide figures and the EU stating the correct figures ?

Edit: And not the Guardian if you please.
 
Bovril said:
We didn't have the ability to do trade deals, the EU did them on our behalf sometimes to our detriment, as I have already eluded to previously its all pat each others EU backs when everything is running smoothly however when its going wrong everything goes out of the window as we see now with much more turbulence coming in the very near future.
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This was 2014 ... Xi visited the Etihad and had his picture taken with Sergio .... its the governments own website ... you've been lied to (continuously)


https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-and-china-agree-14-billion-of-trade-and-investment-deals
 
Bovril said:
I think you will find most EU countries stay in school until 18, Germany definitely do as my daughter had to stay until then. Can you point me to your source that we hide figures and the EU stating the correct figures ?

Edit: And not the Guardian if you please.
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Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_of_school_leaving_age

The school leaving age in Germany is essentially set at 18. However, it does differ depending on the school type. For example, those attending a Gymnasium study for their Abitur and so leave at a later age of 18 than those for example attending a Berufsschule (16) or a Hauptschule (also 16).[3]
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_of_school_leaving_age

The school leaving age in Germany is essentially set at 18. However, it does differ depending on the school type. For example, those attending a Gymnasium study for their Abitur and so leave at a later age of 18 than those for example attending a Berufsschule (16) or a Hauptschule (also 16).[3]
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I knew all that as I said my daughter is in Germany, She attended a Realshule (which you have missed out on typical Wiki), anyway most kids attend the Gymnasium or Realshule for further education (College if you like), the not so bright kids attend the other's pretty much on par with our new system.
 
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