George Floyd murder | Clashes between US police and protestors

[Ban-jani]

I wouldn’t dispute any of that mate except your second last paragraph is a somewhat simplistic view of what happened in Northern Ireland and you don’t strike me as a simplistic kind of guy.
As I say I wouldn’t dispute what you say of the people of the UK. It has been my experience of my numerous times there, throughout the country.
I have always felt welcome.
Which is why I find the place paradoxical when it comes to some of the defence of all things British that comes from some elements that can’t define what Britishness is for you.

Back to your second last paragraph.
Saying it was Britain’s fault in the first place and then blaming it on what religion you are now, whereas I appreciate it is a quick summation, I think completely misses the key moments, for me, of Anglo-Irish history, particularly from the end of the 19th century to the start of the civil rights movement in the 1960’s and the Troubles from the 70’s on,
including our own ‘Rising’ and civil war and farce of 50-60 years of Irish politics. There is fault all around for how this became sectarian.

Anyway this thread is not the place for that debate. I think I may have gone off on one a few times about that in some of the other political threads.
Not going there again.

Just accept it Ban-jani your all mad.
I’m Irish. I know mad when I see it.
This thread has gone in a direction that is crazy in my view.
People displaying one point of view for one scenario and totally contradicting the same logic for a different agenda that doesn’t suit.

And all the time self righteously explaining they are right and it isn’t a contradiction.

That’s the crazy Im talking about.

Place the same logic and scenario on an America Trump supporter.

Just saying!

My paragraph on the island of Ireland was purposefully simplistic to prove the point that being over simplistic isn’t the right thing to do. I know it’s not that simple, I work closely with a Belfast Catholic.

There’s 66m people in the UK, of course there’s some mad bastards but if you lived in G Manchester and worked in town you’d not think there’s a problem between demographics at all. Every office has white, black, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hispanic etc. and when the city was challenged the most in 2017, it didn’t result in any retaliation whatsoever, people decided to come together.

Manchester is a left wing city and the main thing that happens is the odd left wing march and people throwing eggs at the Tories when it’s their conference here, which I don’t condone.

There’s always the odd political confrontation in that there London but don’t think the mad people aren’t the tiny minority.

Also the internet is a terrible judge, no one on this board is willing to start a scrap for their views, walking around Britain, it’s very pleasant.

 

[Shaelumstash]

Agree to an extent but...

The issues start when the self proclaimed anti racists start to call people who are not racist.....racists. What makes you visibly anti racist? Saying so on social media? Going on a march? Taking a knee? Wearing a face scarf whilst chanting BLM?

Does going about your daily life not doing any of the above but being disgusted by the actions of some police officers and the murder and treatment of black people not count as being anti racist?

We should start making people identify in public so that we can all see who is who perhaps? The racists could be made to wear a badge or maybe branded? We could put them into some sort of ghetto away from us self proclaimed anti racists? Eventually we could add to them and anyone who doesn't agree could also be put there but then im guessing we might have a bit of a problem on our hands and some sort of solution would have to be thought about to finally rid us of these people we dont like.

Strange analogy.

You're equating the oppression people face based on the genetics there were born with, alongside ostracising people who hold racist views.

The two don't tally up.

One party cannot change what they're being ostracised for, even if they wanted to. Whereas the other can change their views and behave like a decent human being if they so wished.

To expand on what I assume was your intended point - that ostracising racists won't solve the problem, there is perhaps a discussion to be had.

Ostracising racists may not solve the problem. Engagement and education will likely be better at helping to change views. But they have to be willing to engage for that to happen, and until that happens, ostracising them seems the best available option.

 

[JRockBlues]

So is that what this movement is about then? Reparations for the past? Justice for crimes decades and centuries ago, or is it about current affairs? I'm sure the vast majority of protesters are peaceful, but the % who are a mob are going to cause trouble, and for what? Americas's issue?

It's nothing to do with reparations for the past nor is it just an American problem. You don't think there's a systemic racial problem in other parts of the world? I'm lucky enough to have been born white and have been able to live a comfortable life. I certainly wouldn't want to switch places with a black man of my generation and until we can say it doesn't matter what colour skin you were born with to get a fair chance in life then a problem still exists. Jane Elliott puts it far better than I could:

 

[Tugay One Cup]

I'm not sure if this has been posted already but I'm surprised that I'm only seeing this for the first time.

I think it's only fair to warn that the video is graphic and shows his head wound clearly.



A 16 year boy was shot by police with a "less than lethal" round in Austin, Texas. He had to have emergency surgery after the round almost scalped him, smashed his skull and has now apparently left him with permanent brain damage.

He wasn't protesting, he was at work when he simply decided to check out what was happening and was observing at a distance.

I believe Austin police have refused to identify which officer fired the round.

They also confirmed a 20 year old male had also been shot in the head and was in critical condition.

 

[stonerblue]

I see the new pretend argument is that if those in Bristol cared so much about slaves then they should be out in Mali protesting as there are 20'000 slaves over there.

Every. Single. Time - it's painful

I wonder waht todays reason for showing no sympathy, support or allegiance to the cause will be?
Got 20 pages to get through so i'm sure i'll be able to answer my own question shortly. Onwards..

 

[stonerblue]

I am afraid that this constant bombardment of being accused of being racist at every opportunity, should you not be a lefty, or a remainer, if you dont take a knee, ect ect is causing more resentment and more divide. Those that do it know this and thats what they want to achieve, Division because without that division they no longer have a drum to beat and without that drum their lives would be an empty shell.

There is an opportunity here still. BLM should throw a big fuck off party across the country at the conclusion of this pandemic. A party that takes place in every town with no excuse or reason for any colour religion gender or sexuality or age to fear taking part. A party for all lives turn the UK into one massive woodstock for a weekend. With social media and todays technology it would be quite possible to do. What a message that would send. That is the way to end racism.

I came up with the 'party' idea yesterday. Definitely a goer.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Strange analogy.

You're equating the oppression people face based on the genetics there were born with, alongside ostracising people who hold racist views.

The two don't tally up.

One party cannot change what they're being ostracised for, even if they wanted to. Whereas the other can change their views and behave like a decent human being if they so wished.

To expand on what I assume was your intended point - that ostracising racists won't solve the problem, there is perhaps a discussion to be had.

Ostracising racists may not solve the problem. Engagement and education will likely be better at helping to change views. But they have to be willing to engage for that to happen, and until that happens, ostracising them seems the best available option.

I agree the choice of analogy may be questionable, but I agree with the point that there is a section of people on the anti-fascist/racist side who seem to fairly prescriptive and even slightly fascist in the imposition of their own slightly narrow view of what is 'right'. Denouncing anyone who falls outside of this and diluting the actual issue with general anti establishment rubbish

 

[stonerblue]

There’s absolutely zero evidence for that in the UK, no.

The violence is being done by fringe far left anarchist groups and those that sympathise with them generally speaking.

No it isn't. The tiny bit of argy bargy we've seen in the whole country was commited by a gang of kids and a handfull of wankers.

 

[stonerblue]

Are there names for them? I'm just not familiar -- I know the USA far right groups, but not the UK far left groups.

No, there's no names because they don't exist.

 

[hcblue95]

A related issue for me is that the activists seem to ignore any positive impact an individual or group of people have had across society, if they have done or said some unpleasant things. I wouldn’t dismiss Churchill because he said some nasty things just like I wouldn't dismiss Doreen Lawrence for what she said about the fire brigade who risked their lives at Genfell.

Churchill did a bit more than say some nasty things. You're being disingenuous.

 

[stonerblue]

Antifa are the main one here, similarly to the US.

They tend to show up and start fights.

Evidence??

 

[Ban-jani]

No it isn't. The tiny bit of argy bargy we've seen in the whole country was commited by a gang of kids and a handfull of wankers.

They are wankers alright.

I appreciate it’s a minority but just like it’s a minority of people on the other side, they get the headlines.

I do think it’s got everyone talking about race which is a good thing but the negatives are the potential spread of coronavirus and a big fence coming down the middle of society, there will only be a few of us sat on it sadly.

 

[Ban-jani]

Evidence??

You need evidence that Antifa are one of the main independent groups of left wing politics in the UK?

 

[Ban-jani]

No, there's no names because they don't exist.

I have seen Antifa kicking off in Manchester, they certainly do exist.

https://www.newsflare.com/video/212693/other/football-lads-vs-antifa-in-manchester

 

[purplenose]

I came up with the 'party' idea yesterday. Definitely a goer.

Must be something to do with the smoke....

But seriously would it not just make a statement to knock all others into a cocked hat?

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Churchill did a bit more than say some nasty things. You're being disingenuous.

Yes he said some racist things by the accounts I have read. I also underplayed his achievements so maybe I was being a bit more consistent than you?

FWIW, In the last two General Elections I voted Labour despite their leader having IRA sympathies, that I despise. I weighed up the positive as well as the negatives, as I perceived them.

 

[Chippy_boy]

I think class is the bigger issue in this country.

A lot of the activists at these rallies will no doubt be supporters of getting black workers from foreign countries in on the cheap to do low-paid work.

This leads to negative outcomes in relation to whites (many of whom are middle class) in many, but not all, statistical comparisons due to their low earnings that affect the life chances of them and their children and is far more of an influence than race or racism imo.

Absolutely agreed.

I think the rioters and protestors in the main have very little to do with objecting to racism. They consist of marxist hippies, idealistic 20-year olds (i.e. people who haven't got a fucking clue) and then swathes of poor people, who don't like being poor and living in Easton or Hartcliffe or Knowle West in Bristol, for example. For they are shit holes.

 

[urban genie]

I have seen Antifa kicking off in Manchester, they certainly do exist.

https://www.newsflare.com/video/212693/other/football-lads-vs-antifa-in-manchester

How do you know it was ANTIFA in the 2 year old footage? Only reference is the videos title.

If anything it would be UAF which actually exists.

 

[Chippy_boy]

They are wankers alright.

I appreciate it’s a minority but just like it’s a minority of people on the other side, they get the headlines.

I do think it’s got everyone talking about race which is a good thing but the negatives are the potential spread of coronavirus and a big fence coming down the middle of society, there will only be a few of us sat on it sadly.

Why is it a good thing? Do you think we have an institutionally racist society? I do not. This is blown out of all proportion. Poor people brought up in shitty environments do not have as good life chances as rich people. WTF has race got to do with it?

 

[inbetween]

Me neither. I spent three years in Bristol and when the Penzance train from Piccadilly dumped me at Bristol, the No.8 bus took me past his statue. Bristol history, like Liverpool's (although it probably wasn't the fault of the latter!) is full of references to the slave trade. The city wasn't built on it. but benefited from it like a lot of British ports. Part and parcel of our history, like it or lump it. British history is awash with periods that are heroic and shameful. I embrace all of them, good or bad - they happened. I can't change them but I do try to learn from them.

Apparently the statue was made in Manchester!

It's definitely a part of history but it's certainly controversial as statues exist to honour and parade an individuals achievements.

In terms of the offence it may cause to black people, it's like having a Hitler statue next to a Synagogue which anyone would agree would be ridiculous.

The most annoying and stupid thing I saw from the weekend was the defacement of the Abraham Lincoln statue in Parliament Square, someone who famously abolished slavery, fought for black rights and was assassinated for doing so.

Lincoln would be the exact kind of statesmen that the US needs at the moment.