Moss Side Shooting and Street Party

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

This opinion is pretty much what the BLM protests are about. Black on black killing doesn’t really matter, whereas random terrorist kills “normal” people and everyone is up in arms.

So far wide of the mark it's untrue.

It's the BLM movement itself that doesn't care about black on black crime, because what they're obsessed about is the narrative of oppression in which "white supremacy" (however loosely you define it) is the fault of literally absolutely every negative thing that begets anyone who isn't white in the US, and now seemingly anywhere else in the Western world for that matter.

It's trendy to support because no one wants to be viewed as racist, and most aren't, so feel compelled to get that social approval by promoting BLM. There's social kudos to be gained by supporting and promoting it, and not casting a critical eye over the movement.

When some Islamist kills a bunch of white people there's no social kudos to be gained in condemning it. In fact you're more likely to be suspected of being a bigot if you're vocal about it, or attempt reflections on what can be done to prevent it, that's the real absurdity.

While the truth is the only reason that would be terrorist is in the UK, and free to kill and maim, is because Britain is a tolerant and liberal country which grants plenty of opportunities to people from all corners of the globe to come here to settle and contribute, regardless of their ethnic background, race or religion.

Yet we have to hear and blindly accept the narrative that Britain is an intrinsically racist society to its core, and if we don't we're racist and part of the problem.

It's a joke, and I think most people are sick of hearing it.

As far as the media coverage goes, the terrorist attack that happened in Reading was completely indiscriminate and can happen to anyone at any time or place. That's why it frightens people and grabs headlines.

Knife and gun crime is a national talking point and has been for ages, but no one can agree on how to stop it and it usually happens between young men who target one another and not the wider public. That's why it doesn't garner the same national press.

And what's more, because everyone's preoccupied with the BLM movement at the moment, in which they ignore black on black crime or treat discussion of it as a kind of dog whistle for racists to ignore racism, then what makes you think a shooting in Moss Side will be anything other than an inconvenient side story right now?

It's massively ironic as well because the biggest criticism of "black lives matter" is that they only matter when they can be exploited to serve a political agenda or narrative: e.g. police bad, or evidence of oppression via "white supremacy". Two young black lads dying in a shooting can't at all serve that narrative so it's just background noise to the movement.

That's why people like me see the wider movement as divisive American identity politics, via their absolutely toxic race relations, and shouldn't be supported or promoted.

Racism exists, and anti racism is a good thing. That doesn't mean BLM or the growing obsession with race via America is a positive thing.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

So far wide of the mark it's untrue.

It's the BLM movement itself that doesn't care about black on black crime, because what they're obsessed about is the narrative of oppression in which "white supremacy" (however loosely you define it) is the fault of literally absolutely every negative thing that begets anyone who isn't white in the US, and now seemingly anywhere else in the Western world for that matter.

It's trendy to support because no one wants to be viewed as racist, and most aren't, so feel compelled to get that social approval by promoting BLM. There's social kudos to be gained by supporting and promoting it, and not casting a critical eye over the movement.

When some Islamist kills a bunch of white people there's no social kudos to be gained in condemning it. In fact you're more likely to be suspected of being a bigot if you're vocal about it, or attempt reflections on what can be done to prevent it, that's the real absurdity.

While the truth is the only reason that would be terrorist is in the UK, and free to kill and maim, is because Britain is a tolerant and liberal country which grants plenty of opportunities to people from all corners of the globe to come here to settle and contribute, regardless of their ethnic background, race or religion.

Yet we have to hear and blindly accept the narrative that Britain is an intrinsically racist society to its core, and if we don't we're racist and part of the problem.

It's a joke, and I think most people are sick of hearing it.

As far as the media coverage goes, the terrorist attack that happened in Reading was completely indiscriminate and can happen to anyone at any time or place. That's why it frightens people and grabs headlines.

Knife and gun crime is a national talking point and has been for ages, but no one can agree on how to stop it and it usually happens between young men who target one another and not the wider public. That's why it doesn't garner the same national press.

And what's more, because everyone's preoccupied with the BLM movement at the moment, in which they ignore black on black crime or treat discussion of it as a kind of dog whistle for racists to ignore racism, then what makes you think a shooting in Moss Side will be anything other than an inconvenient side story right now?

It's massively ironic as well because the biggest criticism of "black lives matter" is that they only matter when they can be exploited to serve a political agenda or narrative: e.g. police bad, or evidence of oppression via "white supremacy". Two young black lads dying in a shooting can't at all serve that narrative so it's just background noise to the movement.

That's why people like me see the wider movement as divisive American identity politics, via their absolutely toxic race relations, and shouldn't be supported or promoted.

Racism exists, and anti racism is a good thing. That doesn't mean BLM or the growing obsession with race via America is a positive thing.

This is a great example of some random person who has read some social media to back up his/her opinion that has emboldened them to post this ill-advised, reactionary bullshit.

heard any more about the Moss Side killings? Thought not.

There was a plane that flew over a football stadium that had a banner trailing it that said White Lives matter and the people who support your rhetoric have tried, somewhat lamely, that it was to do with Reading, when the WhatsApp messages show it for what it was. “Banter”.

Banter and memes are a curse on our world. People can hide behind them whilst belittling whatever is being debated, whether it be the Brexit thread on this forum or intrinsic, institutional racism across the world.

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

This is a great example of some random person who has read some social media to back up his/her opinion that has emboldened them to post this ill-advised, reactionary bullshit.

heard any more about the Moss Side killings? Thought not.

There was a plane that flew over a football stadium that had a banner trailing it that said White Lives matter and the people who support your rhetoric have tried, somewhat lamely, that it was to do with Reading, when the WhatsApp messages show it for what it was. “Banter”.

Banter and memes are a curse on our world. People can hide behind them whilst belittling whatever is being debated, whether it be the Brexit thread on this forum or intrinsic, institutional racism across the world.

As expected, a stupid ad hominem response filled with projection.

I'm not being reactionary, and I don't support what those Burnley fans did with that banner.

Try and engage with the points made.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

So far wide of the mark it's untrue.

It's the BLM movement itself that doesn't care about black on black crime, because what they're obsessed about is the narrative of oppression in which "white supremacy" (however loosely you define it) is the fault of literally absolutely every negative thing that begets anyone who isn't white in the US, and now seemingly anywhere else in the Western world for that matter.

It's trendy to support because no one wants to be viewed as racist, and most aren't, so feel compelled to get that social approval by promoting BLM. There's social kudos to be gained by supporting and promoting it, and not casting a critical eye over the movement.

When some Islamist kills a bunch of white people there's no social kudos to be gained in condemning it. In fact you're more likely to be suspected of being a bigot if you're vocal about it, or attempt reflections on what can be done to prevent it, that's the real absurdity.

While the truth is the only reason that would be terrorist is in the UK, and free to kill and maim, is because Britain is a tolerant and liberal country which grants plenty of opportunities to people from all corners of the globe to come here to settle and contribute, regardless of their ethnic background, race or religion.

Yet we have to hear and blindly accept the narrative that Britain is an intrinsically racist society to its core, and if we don't we're racist and part of the problem.

It's a joke, and I think most people are sick of hearing it.

As far as the media coverage goes, the terrorist attack that happened in Reading was completely indiscriminate and can happen to anyone at any time or place. That's why it frightens people and grabs headlines.

Knife and gun crime is a national talking point and has been for ages, but no one can agree on how to stop it and it usually happens between young men who target one another and not the wider public. That's why it doesn't garner the same national press.

And what's more, because everyone's preoccupied with the BLM movement at the moment, in which they ignore black on black crime or treat discussion of it as a kind of dog whistle for racists to ignore racism, then what makes you think a shooting in Moss Side will be anything other than an inconvenient side story right now?

It's massively ironic as well because the biggest criticism of "black lives matter" is that they only matter when they can be exploited to serve a political agenda or narrative: e.g. police bad, or evidence of oppression via "white supremacy". Two young black lads dying in a shooting can't at all serve that narrative so it's just background noise to the movement.

That's why people like me see the wider movement as divisive American identity politics, via their absolutely toxic race relations, and shouldn't be supported or promoted.

Racism exists, and anti racism is a good thing. That doesn't mean BLM or the growing obsession with race via America is a positive thing.

So far wide of the mark it's untrue.

It's the BLM movement itself that doesn't care about black on black crime, because what they're obsessed about is the narrative of oppression in which "white supremacy" (however loosely you define it) is the fault of literally absolutely every negative thing that begets anyone who isn't white in the US, and now seemingly anywhere else in the Western world for that matter.

It's trendy to support because no one wants to be viewed as racist, and most aren't, so feel compelled to get that social approval by promoting BLM. There's social kudos to be gained by supporting and promoting it, and not casting a critical eye over the movement.

When some Islamist kills a bunch of white people there's no social kudos to be gained in condemning it. In fact you're more likely to be suspected of being a bigot if you're vocal about it, or attempt reflections on what can be done to prevent it, that's the real absurdity.

While the truth is the only reason that would be terrorist is in the UK, and free to kill and maim, is because Britain is a tolerant and liberal country which grants plenty of opportunities to people from all corners of the globe to come here to settle and contribute, regardless of their ethnic background, race or religion.

Yet we have to hear and blindly accept the narrative that Britain is an intrinsically racist society to its core, and if we don't we're racist and part of the problem.

It's a joke, and I think most people are sick of hearing it.

As far as the media coverage goes, the terrorist attack that happened in Reading was completely indiscriminate and can happen to anyone at any time or place. That's why it frightens people and grabs headlines.

Knife and gun crime is a national talking point and has been for ages, but no one can agree on how to stop it and it usually happens between young men who target one another and not the wider public. That's why it doesn't garner the same national press.

And what's more, because everyone's preoccupied with the BLM movement at the moment, in which they ignore black on black crime or treat discussion of it as a kind of dog whistle for racists to ignore racism, then what makes you think a shooting in Moss Side will be anything other than an inconvenient side story right now?

It's massively ironic as well because the biggest criticism of "black lives matter" is that they only matter when they can be exploited to serve a political agenda or narrative: e.g. police bad, or evidence of oppression via "white supremacy". Two young black lads dying in a shooting can't at all serve that narrative so it's just background noise to the movement.

That's why people like me see the wider movement as divisive American identity politics, via their absolutely toxic race relations, and shouldn't be supported or promoted.

Racism exists, and anti racism is a good thing. That doesn't mean BLM or the growing obsession with race via America is a positive thing.

The problem with black-on-black violence, however, can often be traced back to the same starting points. Violence and particularly gang violence is more likely to occur in poorer communities (you saw the same thing in poor white communities like Glasgow in the past). Because of unequal opportunities (many historical, but some current), black people are more likely to live in those poorer communities. Because of unequal policing, they are more likely to get caught for those infringements and end up in the criminal justice system, which further reduces their opportunities (especially in America, but a criminal record isn't going to help anywhere). They are therefore more likely to turn to things like drug dealing and other criminal activities where you can make money and status quickly (the basic psychology of young men everywhere). And then are more likely to get caught up in the associated violence. So even when talking about black-on-black violence, we're often still talking about institutionalized racial discrimination as well as the class system as major contributing factors. Incidentally, I think in the UK they would do far better to focus on the class issues rather than the race ones, because I think they're actually a more important factor and if dealt with, would deliver the biggest improvement in prospects for black people.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

The problem with black-on-black violence, however, can often be traced back to the same starting points. Violence and particularly gang violence is more likely to occur in poorer communities (you saw the same thing in poor white communities like Glasgow in the past). Because of unequal opportunities (many historical, but some current), black people are more likely to live in those poorer communities. Because of unequal policing, they are more likely to get caught for those infringements and end up in the criminal justice system, which further reduces their opportunities (especially in America, but a criminal record isn't going to help anywhere). They are therefore more likely to turn to things like drug dealing and other criminal activities where you can make money and status quickly (the basic psychology of young men everywhere). And then are more likely to get caught up in the associated violence. So even when talking about black-on-black violence, we're often still talking about institutionalized racial discrimination as well as the class system as major contributing factors. Incidentally, I think in the UK they would do far better to focus on the class issues rather than the race ones, because I think they're actually a more important factor and if dealt with, would deliver the biggest improvement in prospects for black people.

Tell Stupid to go home, because I like what you’re saying.

I live outside Chicago, one of the “murder capitals” of the world. Thing is, 90% of people have little to no concern about it here, because you can literally draw a circle around most of it and simply stay out of those neighborhoods.

Why is that? For the reasons you cited..SPOT ON!

Unfortunately, problems that have been created over centuries are not easily fixed in a generation. However, when lip service is the only down payment on change, then nothing happens and the situation devolves...investment not only stays away, but moves away. White flight is real, and it’s not just the families, but the money white people control, including redlining for mortgages, undervaluing property, etc, etc, etc...

The problems are SYSTEMIC and have been built into society. Meanwhile, generations of underprivileged, underserved, overhyped and overdenounced young blacks have recognized their place in “polite, white society” and had to learn to fight over the scraps...all while white people have pointed and sneered at the problems THEY HELPED CREATE, saying “Look...look what they’re doing now!”

And the screw tightens...

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

The problem with black-on-black violence, however, can often be traced back to the same starting points. Violence and particularly gang violence is more likely to occur in poorer communities (you saw the same thing in poor white communities like Glasgow in the past). Because of unequal opportunities (many historical, but some current), black people are more likely to live in those poorer communities. Because of unequal policing, they are more likely to get caught for those infringements and end up in the criminal justice system, which further reduces their opportunities (especially in America, but a criminal record isn't going to help anywhere). They are therefore more likely to turn to things like drug dealing and other criminal activities where you can make money and status quickly (the basic psychology of young men everywhere). And then are more likely to get caught up in the associated violence. So even when talking about black-on-black violence, we're often still talking about institutionalized racial discrimination as well as the class system as major contributing factors. Incidentally, I think in the UK they would do far better to focus on the class issues rather than the race ones, because I think they're actually a more important factor and if dealt with, would deliver the biggest improvement in prospects for black people.

Largely agree with this, but I think an understanding of this shouldn't be used to explain away free will and personal agency.

I take issue with the racial politics of America over here precisely because the UK's biggest issue is with class. We don't have America's deep racial divides and we don't share their outlook on race.

I think their perspective on race relations is divisive and is not something that aids the working class in the UK. It aids the status quo who benefit from the working class being divided.

That doesn't mean there shouldn't be a place for us to discuss race, but it should be within our own context not just blindly following the lead of America. I think their influence on us as a country is too great and way too many people absorb their narratives and paradigms as our own.

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

Tell Stupid to go home, because I like what you’re saying.

I live outside Chicago, one of the “murder capitals” of the world. Thing is, 90% of people have little to no concern about it here, because you can literally draw a circle around most of it and simply stay out of those neighborhoods.

Why is that? For the reasons you cited..SPOT ON!

Unfortunately, problems that have been created over centuries are not easily fixed in a generation. However, when lip service is the only down payment on change, then nothing happens and the situation devolves...investment not only stays away, but moves away. White flight is real, and it’s not just the families, but the money white people control, including redlining for mortgages, undervaluing property, etc, etc, etc...

The problems are SYSTEMIC and have been built into society. Meanwhile, generations of underprivileged, underserved, overhyped and overdenounced young blacks have recognized their place in “polite, white society” and had to learn to fight over the scraps...all while white people have pointed and sneered at the problems THEY HELPED CREATE, saying “Look...look what they’re doing now!”

And the screw tightens...

Blurring the lines between the UK and the US again.

We're not talking about the US, we're talking about the UK.

We never had slave plantations, lynchings, Jim Crow.

Your country's race relations are incredibly toxic, I don't think the UK's are. I don't think how we feel about race should be informed by your massively divided country.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

Largely agree with this, but I think an understanding of this shouldn't be used to explain away free will and personal agency.

I take issue with the racial politics of America over here precisely because the UK's biggest issue is with class. We don't have America's deep racial divides and we don't share their outlook on race.

I think their perspective on race relations is divisive and is not something that aids the working class in the UK. It aids the status quo who benefit from the working class being divided.

That doesn't mean there shouldn't be a place for us to discuss race, but it should be within our own context not just blindly following the lead of America. I think their influence on us as a country is too great and way too many people absorb their narratives and paradigms as our own.

It's interesting because I was just watching a US-based show citing research that a CV with a 'black-sounding' name would get 50% less invitations to interview than an identical CV with a 'white-sounding' name. And I was already familiar with this phenomenon, not because I'd heard about this exact study before, but because exactly the same research was done in the UK about 10 years ago with pretty much the same results (with 'Asian-sounding' names coming somewhere between the two).

Yes, we didn't have slavery (in our own country, at least), and we didn't explicitly have laws to discriminate against black people, but let's not pretend that things like this weren't happened at the very highest level:

Or that people weren't pressured into refusing to sell their houses to black people, or that having black people in a neighbourhood wouldn't reduce house prices. When it comes to bank loans and mortgages, we've never had the explicitly racist policies of some American banks, where they will charge higher interest to ethnic minorities, but they have certainly historically found it more difficult than white people to get credit. Hell, there's even statistics to show that black people are twice as likely to be refused a refund from their bank when they're a victim of bank fraud, because their claims are considered less believable. It's not a coincidence that only 20-odd percent of black people own their own homes compared to a national average of around 70 percent. And given that that's one of the best ways to build wealth for generations, it's therefore not a surprise to find a larger than average number living in poverty 55 years after the poster above was used in an election campaign. It's also worth mentioning that if you have no stake in a community (i.e. you only rent, you don't actually own a part of it) you are less likely to give a shit what happens to it.

And this is why Black Lives Matter has resonated around the world, because while the exact issues faced by a black person in France, the UK, the USA or Australia might be different, they all suffer from poorer life chances because of systemic racism both historical and current.

 

[Fame Monster]

The problem with black-on-black violence, however, can often be traced back to the same starting points. Violence and particularly gang violence is more likely to occur in poorer communities (you saw the same thing in poor white communities like Glasgow in the past). Because of unequal opportunities (many historical, but some current), black people are more likely to live in those poorer communities. Because of unequal policing, they are more likely to get caught for those infringements and end up in the criminal justice system, which further reduces their opportunities (especially in America, but a criminal record isn't going to help anywhere). They are therefore more likely to turn to things like drug dealing and other criminal activities where you can make money and status quickly (the basic psychology of young men everywhere). And then are more likely to get caught up in the associated violence. So even when talking about black-on-black violence, we're often still talking about institutionalized racial discrimination as well as the class system as major contributing factors. Incidentally, I think in the UK they would do far better to focus on the class issues rather than the race ones, because I think they're actually a more important factor and if dealt with, would deliver the biggest improvement in prospects for black people.

Britain isn't an institutionally racist society (although there will still be plenty of examples of racism) and the achievements of other ethnic minorities who do better than whites in most categories give credence to that.

It is, however, a class riven society and the ironic thing about many of these protesters is that they'll be the first to moan about the outcomes of black people in UK society (average incomes, crimes etc) and historical slavery yet they'll also be the first people banging the drum to employ cheap, black labour on exploitative pay and conditions to work in this country without realising or thinking through the damage this causes to the life chances of the next generation of black people.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

As expected, a stupid ad hominem response filled with projection.

I'm not being reactionary, and I don't support what those Burnley fans did with that banner.

Try and engage with the points made.

Ad hominem. A phrase used by lawyers and people who frequent too many chat rooms.

I know which of the two you are more likely to be.