Valid point.
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Valid point.
Let’s not pretend the Scots Indy movement isn’t far more toxic, far more ridiculous and far more nationalistic than Brexit.
It definitely is not. It is a highly ignorant and ridiculous thing to say. I've lived through both, they do not compare. At least as far as toxicity, and nationalism go.
The rest of your post, not so ridiculous. But the above, totally wrong.
I’m neutral, I think both Brexit and Scottish Independence are bad ideas and I’m fundamentally against both, from an English perspective.It definitely is not. It is a highly ignorant and ridiculous thing to say. I've lived through both, they do not compare. At least as far as toxicity, and nationalism go.
The rest of your post, not so ridiculous. But the above, totally wrong.
My Glaswegian mate also has a massively differing view to you.
He said Brexit seems soft compared to some of the animosity in Glasgow just before the vote.
A lot of the support for indy 2 seems to be caused by the English scoffing, taking the piss and saying they can't have another go - I recall similar resentment in the UK /EU dynamic in the years leading up to the 2016 brexit referendum. Maybe we could do worse than just agree to the SNP demands and help organise an 'amicable divorce '
The population would need to choose it first, but yes, i agree this attitude has an effect in pushing people towards something they would be less inclined to care about. I honestly often find myself feeling that, on here.
I’m neutral, I think both Brexit and Scottish Independence are bad ideas and I’m fundamentally against both, from an English perspective.
My Glaswegian mate also has a massively differing view to you.
He said Brexit seems soft compared to some of the animosity in Glasgow just before the vote.
We've been over this. Bad idea good idea, that wasn't what i argued. it was that it is more toxic and nationalistic than brexit. no fucking way. I don't even want to get into pointing out the levels brexit got to, the hate crime and attitudes that came with it, it riles me up and upsets me that it exists in a society i am a part of.
You mention your friend in glasgow, but if you are basing your view on what you want your interpretation of second hand opinion to be, maybe thats your problem.
I was in glasgow the whole time too. His experiences might not be too different from mine. There Was some animosity and discomfort to it, i never said there wasnt, now nor when we had this discussion before. I wasnt keen on the whole episode, and im not keen on hoing through it again. But believe me, it is nothing compared to brexit, in terms of nationalism and discomfort. Ask yiur weeg friend, how he thinks it compares to brexit, nationwide, his thoughts in that context, might surprise you.
Why because people are telling you it’s a bad idea?The population would need to choose it first, but yes, i agree this attitude has an effect in pushing people towards something they would be less inclined to care about. I honestly often find myself feeling that, on here.
Scotland can go but a border will be going up and you’ll spend significant time outside of the UK and EU.
I’m warming to the idea of an independent England, at least the left will be hammered even further and the sniping from Scotland and Wales will stop.
We've been over this. Bad idea good idea, that wasn't what i argued. it was that it is more toxic and nationalistic than brexit. no fucking way. I don't even want to get into pointing out the levels brexit got to, the hate crime and attitudes that came with it, it riles me up and upsets me that it exists in a society i am a part of.
You mention your friend in glasgow, but if you are basing your view on what you want your interpretation of second hand opinion to be, maybe thats your problem.
I was in glasgow the whole time too. His experiences might not be too different from mine. There Was some animosity and discomfort to it, i never said there wasnt, now nor when we had this discussion before. I wasnt keen on the whole episode, and im not keen on hoing through it again. But believe me, it is nothing compared to brexit, in terms of nationalism and discomfort. Ask yiur weeg friend, how he thinks it compares to brexit, nationwide, his thoughts in that context, might surprise you.
I’m talking about the build up.
You can’t compare the aftermath as that hasn’t happened with independence, Brexit got more tribal when Parliament was stuck and it dragged.
In the build up it was fine, a lot of confusion about what the fuck it meant but it wasn’t anywhere near as heated as 2017-2019.
Just wait when Sturgeon can’t agree a deal with Johnson, see how angry it gets then.
Up until the vote, the Scottish Indy vote was comfortably worse in tension.
Why because people are telling you it’s a bad idea?
Scotland can go but a border will be going up and you’ll spend significant time outside of the UK and EU.
I’m warming to the idea of an independent England, at least the left will be hammered even further and the sniping from Scotland and Wales will stop.
You keep asking these questions and expecting an answer, i don't make a case for independence, nor have i really had any interest in doing so. I think you may be confuse my challenging certain off the cuff claims, as a stance. It is not.
I’m talking about the build up.
You can’t compare the aftermath as that hasn’t happened with independence, Brexit got more tribal when Parliament was stuck and it dragged.
In the build up it was fine, a lot of confusion about what the fuck it meant but it wasn’t anywhere near as heated as 2017-2019.
Just wait when Sturgeon can’t agree a deal with Johnson, see how angry it gets then.
Up until the vote, the Scottish Indy vote was comfortably worse in tension.
I was talking about the build-up too.
I genuinely have experienced both, and i can absolutely say, you are wrong. You might nit want to be, and you may want to vilify it to suit your beliefs, but you are wrong. I'm not the only one here that has claimed that. That is my honest response.
You keep asking these questions and expecting an answer, i don't make a case for independence, nor have i really had any interest in doing so. I think you may be confuse my challenging certain off the cuff claims, as a stance. It is not.
I do understand that, I do what you’re doing all the time in the Trump and Tory thread, both of which I don’t like but get accused of being a supporter of them.
My point isn’t that though, it’s that the Scottish contingent on here aren’t scoffed at, not by anyone, I’m the most vocal against it and I merely highlight why it’s a bad idea.
It seems to me Scots or the left wingers that live there and like Sturgeon, can’t handle criticism of independence, even if they don’t like it, it’s almost like they don’t want an English opinion.
Which is fine, I get that but I’m not going to shut up.
As I say, I’m becoming more and more content with English independence, I want to live in a country where the majority is pulling together, not one where there’s so much dissent against national identity.
Maybe we should kick the miserable cunts out of the union or just declare England as independent.
To be honest I‘m sick of the Scottish and Welsh with their anti English nonsense and NI is a head ache.
Get rid and let’s go our own way.
Case in point.
G
G
ganganvince
Guest
Not got a problem with there being an Indy 2 but would prefer the terms to be agreed upfront so people know what they are gettingA lot of the support for indy 2 seems to be caused by the English scoffing, taking the piss and saying they can't have another go - I recall similar resentment in the UK /EU dynamic in the years leading up to the 2016 brexit referendum. Maybe we could do worse than just agree to the SNP demands and help organise an 'amicable divorce '
And you don’t think that was a joke?Case in point.
On the contrary you don’t want Scotland to be a more toxic atmosphere than nasty Brexit England and therefore you’re putting this point out.I was talking about the build-up too.
I genuinely have experienced both, and i can absolutely say, you are wrong. You might nit want to be, and you may want to vilify it to suit your beliefs, but you are wrong. I'm not the only one here that has claimed that. That is my honest response.
We may as well agree to disagree but Brexit wasn’t toxic at all in the general public until after the event.
And you don’t think that was a joke?
Gets hard to tell. Apologies, i believe you, re-reading it.
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese
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The problem with that is it allows people who are in reality just not happy with independence to hide forever more behind debate on the 'terms'. Better perhaps to agree broad principles of separation - (totally) separate parliament, deal on currency sharing until euro is adopted, division of debt if required. There may be a case for rebranding hm forces as something else to which all the former UK nations contribute an agreed share of gdp and a possible mini un style system of voting/veto of military action.Not got a problem with there being an Indy 2 but would prefer the terms to be agreed upfront so people know what they are getting
In all fairness the Scottish don’t like the English, even my Scottish mate who lives in Stockport doesn’t.
I disagree with that. I can't think of anyone i know that dislikes the english. Not counting wanting a particular generation of the english football team to lose. I'm not sure if you really know what genuine dislike is, if you either believe that to be true or are careless with such a sweeping statement.
And yes there of course are nutters, everyehere, but to apply that to a whole nation, nope.
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese
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Probably more hate for each other on sectarian grounds than the English.I disagree with that. I can't think of anyone i know that dislikes the english. Not counting wanting a particular generation of the english football team to lose. I'm not sure if you really know what genuine dislike is, if you either believe that to be true or are careless with such a sweeping statement.
And yes there of course are nutters, everyehere, but to apply that to a whole nation, nope.
blueparrot
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Loads of English people around here , none of us as far as I know have ever had any problems, at all. No doubt there are incidents around the country, but I have no experience of any.I disagree with that. I can't think of anyone i know that dislikes the english. Not counting wanting a particular generation of the english football team to lose. I'm not sure if you really know what genuine dislike is, if you either believe that to be true or are careless with such a sweeping statement.
And yes there of course are nutters, everyehere, but to apply that to a whole nation, nope.
No worries, it was a joke but there is some meaning behind England going it alone.Gets hard to tell. Apologies, i believe you, re-reading it.