George Floyd murder / Derek Chauvin guilty of murder

Silva_Spell said:
Based on the initial video it seemed that 2nd degree was plausible but 3rd degree murder was an overcharge even back then. Having read the transcript and seen the leaked bodycam footage it seems without question that they have overcharged Chauvin and the rest of the cops will or should have their cases dismissed

In terms of the non-Chauvin cops and their interactions with Floyd:
  • The cops showed a huge amount of patience and even kindness (eg. saying they'd stay with him and roll the windows down for him) leading up to the infamous and tragic video we all saw *this patience soon led to violently trying force the man into the police vehicle
  • A gun was only drawn for a short time whilst Floyd reached about in his car. Once Floyd stopped the gun was holstered and never came back out. *Floyd's hands were clearly seen at all times and even breaks into tears fearing he'd be shot (again) and, ultimately in fear for his life.
  • Despite claims to the contrary in various places, Floyd was told why he was being detained *According to the news piece after almost 9 mins into the arrest
​

  • Floyd was clearly off his head on something
  • Floyd was resisting throughout, a fact noted by his exGF right from the off *This comment is subjective as he was also clearly compliant in parts of the arrest.
  • Floyd's ex GF intermated that he has mental problems (tho it is also likely this was to try and hide their drug use and whilst the cops probably saw through it it is something they will have had to keep in mind) *This is your opinion and you should state this.
  • His exGF and the other man with Floyd (both black) were not manhandled or even had a gun pulled on them because they complied (kept their hands in view and getting out of the car without resisting)
  • Floyd said many times that he couldn't breathe long before he was on the ground. *Your point being?
  • The cops put him on the ground in response to Floyd's request to be put on the ground *He asked to stand cited on the video above
  • Despite the reasons to dismiss Floyd's pleas they still called for a medic and at least one of them verbalised their concern regarding Excited Delirium
These are not the actions of heartless racist thugs out to hurt anyone or help someone commit a murder. *I don't recall anyone saying this was 'direct and personal' racism, but have mentioned that this was an illegal maneuver to hold down an arrestee (even cited within police standards must NOT obstruct airway even if aggressive or resisting), thus adding to the statistics of 'systemic racism' of how a demographic is treated over another.​
​
Whilst there is partial overlap in the bodycam footage due to him arriving later, Chauvin is a more complicated case but unless the state has an as yet unknown silver bullet he is not going down for murder. We're talking more about negligence than murder and with excited delirium being a possible reason for Floyd's death (with or without the knee) there is a sizable amount of reasonable doubt there. *This, again, is opinion. You fail to take into account Chauvin was questioned on whether to change tactic upon which ignored fellow officers, clearly having the chance to realign his actions, making this wilful ignorance of the situation and distress of the victim.​
​
Whether Chauvin is found not guilty or guilty on a lesser charge the biggest problem the US (and for some weirdly forced reason the UK) faces is the backlash. This is because the media and various social media outlets (eg. The Young Turks) have so incredibly failed to inform their viewers (and in some cases intentionally misinform) that they will feel utterly blindsided by anything other than everyone involved being sent away for life. The riots will make the last few months look ahem 'largely peaceful' * You, obviously missed out your thought process here; "failed to inform their viewers" of what, exactly...?​
Click to expand...


Yes, I have @Dax777 to thank as I'd forgotten all about this post. If you look carefully I have edited and responded within the quote.

As I said, your post was misguided in its attempt to explain a narrative to suit your goal.

Let me post this excerpt about the shop owner and Floyd:
Floyd was a regular in the store and often came in to pay his phone bill, Abumayyaleh told Inside Edition. “If I was [there] I don’t think the authorities would have been called and we would have policed our own matters,” Abumayyaleh said.

"Everyone that knew George knew him as very friendly, very kind, caring, jovial," Cup Foods spokesperson Jamar Nelson told Inside Edition.


Inside Edition was given a tour of the store, including the path Floyd would have taken as he purchased the cigarettes and exited to the street. It's very possible that Floyd may never have known the bill he handed over was fake, according to experts.
Click to expand...

https://www.insideedition.com/georg...and-may-not-have-known-bill-was-possibly-fake

There, a detailed response you can both pour over to your hearts' content.

I'm happy to dissect any other opinions, thus misinterpretations, you both have of events.
 
Bigga said:
  • The cops showed a huge amount of patience and even kindness (eg. saying they'd stay with him and roll the windows down for him) leading up to the infamous and tragic video we all saw *this patience soon led to violently trying force the man into the police vehicle
Click to expand...
May I as what is the police supposed to do when an arrested suspect refuses to get in the police car?

Also seeing as we are out here pointing out what's opinion "Violently" is your opinion. Not a fact. Again what should cops do when suspect don't comply?

A gun was only drawn for a short time whilst Floyd reached about in his car. Once Floyd stopped the gun was holstered and never came back out. *Floyd's hands were clearly seen at all times and even breaks into tears fearing he'd be shot (again) and, ultimately in fear for his life.
Click to expand...
Your response here is simply false. His right hand was NOT visible. Causing the cop to ask multiple times to show his hands. Both hands.

Despite claims to the contrary in various places, Floyd was told why he was being detained *According to the news piece after almost 9 mins into the arrest
Click to expand...
I am happy you agree he was told why he was being arrested. It took 9 minutes because it was hard to orient Floyd, who was being hysterical. Possibly because he was either high or off his meds.
  • Floyd was clearly off his head on something
  • Floyd was resisting throughout, a fact noted by his exGF right from the off *This comment is subjective as he was also clearly compliant in parts of the arrest.
Click to expand...

No Bigga, when you are not fully compliant, you are resisting. That he sometimes complied is not particularly relevant. Again, he was constantly resisting. It's disheartening to watch. I think officer Lane figured it out and try to get him on his side as he worried he was suffering from a bout of excited delirium. Chauvin was too dumb to process the information in real time.

  • Floyd's ex GF intermated that he has mental problems (tho it is also likely this was to try and hide their drug use and whilst the cops probably saw through it it is something they will have had to keep in mind) *This is your opinion and you should state this.
  • His exGF and the other man with Floyd (both black) were not manhandled or even had a gun pulled on them because they complied (kept their hands in view and getting out of the car without resisting)
  • Floyd said many times that he couldn't breathe long before he was on the ground. *Your point being?
Click to expand...
Obviously, the fact that he was complaining of breathing before being put on the ground suggests the drug in his system might have been a proximate cause of his death.

  • The cops put him on the ground in response to Floyd's request to be put on the ground *He asked to stand cited on the video above
Click to expand...
Yes Bigga, he did. But if you watch the unedited video ( which one has to wonder why any station would edit it) he clearly asked to be put on the ground. Which suggests something bad was going on inside him that was probably excercebated by Chauvin.

I mean it's clear they all knew something was going on with him. They called for the Ambulance when he was put on the ground for a reason.
  • Despite the reasons to dismiss Floyd's pleas they still called for a medic and at least one of them verbalised their concern regarding Excited Delirium
These are not the actions of heartless racist thugs out to hurt anyone or help someone commit a murder. *I don't recall anyone saying this was 'direct and personal' racism, but have mentioned that this was an illegal maneuver to hold down an arrestee (even cited within police standards must NOT obstruct airway even if aggressive or resisting), thus adding to the statistics of 'systemic racism' of how a demographic is treated over another.
Click to expand...
You don't recall? Do you want to read this thread again to refresh your recollection? Of course many thought this was specifically the act of racist cops showing disregard for the life of black men. As they (the racist cops) often do.

The only reason SS is even making the above point is because it cuts against the racist narrative.
You are doing some heavy backtracking here if you are now claiming no one thought this specific act was about racism.
Whilst there is partial overlap in the bodycam footage due to him arriving later, Chauvin is a more complicated case but unless the state has an as yet unknown silver bullet he is not going down for murder. We're talking more about negligence than murder and with excited delirium being a possible reason for Floyd's death (with or without the knee) there is a sizable amount of reasonable doubt there. *This, again, is opinion. You fail to take into account Chauvin was questioned on whether to change tactic upon which ignored fellow officers, clearly having the chance to realign his actions, making this wilful ignorance of the situation and distress of the victim.
Click to expand...
@Silva_Spell I'm going to have to disagree here. I think you are right the other cops will probably get their cases dismissed. But Chauvin was just horrible all through.

The fact that he was the senior cop and 2ice ignored the obvious request to lay Floyd on his side to mitigate the possible bout of excited delirium and the fact he continued to kneel on his neck ( whether that obstructed his airways or not) Chauvin is likely a proximate cause of Floyd's death. I think there is a good chance he gets convicted on present evidence.


Whether Chauvin is found not guilty or guilty on a lesser charge the biggest problem the US (and for some weirdly forced reason the UK) faces is the backlash. This is because the media and various social media outlets (eg. The Young Turks) have so incredibly failed to inform their viewers (and in some cases intentionally misinform) that they will feel utterly blindsided by anything other than everyone involved being sent away for life. The riots will make the last few months look ahem 'largely peaceful' * You, obviously missed out your thought process here; "failed to inform their viewers" of what, exactly...
[/QUOTE]
All the relevant facts Bigga. All the relevant facts.
That Floyd was resisting arrest.
That there were 2 other black people in his car. Both complied and no issue.
That Floyd was high or delirious when being interrogated
That Floyd requested to be put on the ground.
That the cops called an ambulance as they knew something was going on.
That Floyd complained of breathing long before Chavin came along.


ALL the facts matter. Not just the ones that suits ones view. The above facts were often and continue to be blurred.
Click to expand...
 
Dax777 said:
I) May I as what is the police supposed to do when an arrested suspect refuses to get in the police car?

II) Also seeing as we are out here pointing out what's opinion "Violently" is your opinion. Not a fact. Again what should cops do when suspect don't comply?


III) Your response here is simply false. His right hand was NOT visible. Causing the cop to ask multiple times to show his hands. Both hands.


IV) I am happy you agree he was told why he was being arrested. It took 9 minutes because it was hard to orient Floyd, who was being hysterical. Possibly because he was either high or off his meds.


V) No Bigga, when you are not fully compliant, you are resisting. That he sometimes complied is not particularly relevant. Again, he was constantly resisting. It's disheartening to watch. I think officer Lane figured it out and try to get him on his side as he worried he was suffering from a bout of excited delirium. Chauvin was too dumb to process the information in real time.


VI) Obviously, the fact that he was complaining of breathing before being put on the ground suggests the drug in his system might have been a proximate cause of his death.


VII) Yes Bigga, he did. But if you watch the unedited video ( which one has to wonder why any station would edit it) he clearly asked to be put on the ground. Which suggests something bad was going on inside him that was probably excercebated by Chauvin.

VII) I mean it's clear they all knew something was going on with him. They called for the Ambulance when he was put on the ground for a reason.

IX) You don't recall? Do you want to read this thread again to refresh your recollection? Of course many thought this was specifically the act of racist cops showing disregard for the life of black men. As they (the racist cops) often do.

X) The only reason SS is even making the above point is because it cuts against the racist narrative.
You are doing some heavy backtracking here if you are now claiming no one thought this specific act was about racism.

@Silva_Spell I'm going to have to disagree here. I think you are right the other cops will probably get their cases dismissed. But Chauvin was just horrible all through.

The fact that he was the senior cop and 2ice ignored the obvious request to lay Floyd on his side to mitigate the possible bout of excited delirium and the fact he continued to kneel on his neck ( whether that obstructed his airways or not) Chauvin is likely a proximate cause of Floyd's death. I think there is a good chance he gets convicted on present evidence.
Click to expand...

As I'm awake and can't sleep I'll address you now as I have no other distractions.

I) I think the issue of treatment of the victim is subject on when #45's suggestion of "don't treat them too nice!" came into play when a man who is shouting he's claustrophobic. At no point did the officers think about another option rather than forcing the man in the vehicle. there are demonstrations online showing how to make someone more 'compliant' with less scuffling involved. The officers are clearly trained very poorly and lack communicating skills.

II) "Violently" is not opinion. You have eyes, you can see the great scuffle on the video itself in trying to force the man into a vehicle. The very LEAST "violence", as a definition is, is a push with intent. You're absolutely scraping the barrel on this POV.

III) You can't say to me it's false! The body cam only shows so much and is not at head height where the officer can see. All the officer is doing is following procedure where he can absolutely see both hands on the wheel. This is EXACTLY why he doesn't feel threatened and in 'fear for his life' as we see and hear so often. Watch again. At no point do two hands go to his gun in a 'threatened' manner. He can see, he's just reverting to training.

IV) Tell me if when Floyd is being handcuffed, they explain to him WHY this is happening. I would think it's against his civil liberties not to explain to him what's happening REGARDLESS of orientation. The job is to allay fear and communicate otherwise it's akin to snatching someone off the street, just because. He is told AS he is coming out of the other side of the police vehicle. At no point has he been read his Miranda rights as far as I can tell.

V) He became resistant to arrest after being compliant. This coincided with the proclamation of being claustrophobic. He's taken from the car he was sat in. he is sat down on the floor. He is walked to the police vehicle. He is searched. All of this is compliant behaviour. Show me otherwise. It's his clear fear of claustrophobia that sets off the incident. 'Resisting arrest' is implication he fought all the way. He did not.

VI) That is a massive leap of faith when it could just be his claustrophobia setting off a huge panic attack at the thought of being left alone in a dark vehicle. No officer would there with him in his arrest whilst an investigation would be ongoing, let's be honest.

VII) The unedited version does show he asked to be put on the ground. Again claustrophobia driving him to do anything but be in the vehicle. One would assume if he'd taken the substance before he'd have reacted poorly on another occasion, so why re-use something that made you ill previously. Claustrophobia is the main issue here, alongside the substance, possibly. I think that's a fair assumption.

VIII) This is assumption. Looking at the whole scuffle "he was put on the ground for a reason" is because that's where they ended up. That is the only fact to reason.

IX) I didn't have the privilege of crawling through every page, so what I said about not recalling is a truth to my recollection. One you cannot argue with.

X) See the above.

I'm unsure what the next quote is about but my name is in there, but I think you're referring to TYT or something...

* All the relevant facts Bigga. All the relevant facts.
** That Floyd was resisting arrest.
*** That there were 2 other black people in his car. Both complied and no issue.
**** That Floyd was high or delirious when being interrogated
***** That Floyd requested to be put on the ground.
****** That the cops called an ambulance as they knew something was going on.
******* That Floyd complained of breathing long before Chavin came along.


*ALL the facts matter. Not just the ones that suits ones view. The above facts were often and continue to be blurred.
Click to expand...

* Certain "facts" as I've shown can be bent to parlay a vision that is not always so in its entirety.

** To a point.

*** Totally irrelevant.

**** Unknown at that time by ANY news outlet based on the available video released.

***** Unknown at that time by ANY news outlet based on the available video released.

****** Unknown at that time by ANY news outlet based on the available video released.

* Unknown at that time by ANY news outlet based on the available video released. I'm sure TYT and others will revisit the story when trial and or verdict happens.
 
Bigga said:
My reply was a response to your reply for clarity's sake, not the video!

You saw the quoted sentence in order to reply, of course.
Click to expand...
It appears we're at cross purposes, I don't know which it is you're asking about, it may be me, but the vid was the Chicago police chief's statement, I posted an ironic response to a reply. Anyway, as well as the Chicago police comments, the NYC police are now actively backing Trump, as per the vid above.
 
Bigga said:
↓
Click to expand...
" *this patience soon led to violently trying force the man into the police vehicle "

After much cajoling, humouring and almost pleading. At some point Floyd has to get in the car. And pushing/pulling isn't particularly violent.

" *Floyd's hands were clearly seen at all times"

False.

" According to the news piece after almost 9 mins into the arrest "

He was first told when he was sat on the floor near his car by the surveillance camera, the same time he was being asked for his name etc.

" *This comment is subjective as he was also clearly compliant in parts of the arrest. "

He was momentarily compliant, like when he said "ok, ok I'll get in the car" before immediately resisting again.

" This is your opinion and you should state this. "

Yes, it is my view that the cops saw through the claim that he wasn't on drugs. [shrug]

"*Your point being?"

For multiple reasons it creates reasonable doubt
And it proves that the non-Chauvin cops didn't take chances with Floyd's health despite reasons to doubt him.

" *He asked to stand cited on the video above "

What I stated was true.

" *I don't recall anyone saying this was 'direct and personal' racism, but have mentioned that this was an illegal maneuver to hold down an arrestee (even cited within police standards must NOT obstruct airway even if aggressive or resisting), thus adding to the statistics of 'systemic racism' of how a demographic is treated over another. "

The knee is legal in Minneapolis
To say that the media hasn't run with the racist police narrative has to be gaslighting.
The facts that much of the media has largely if not completely ignored stand in contrast to the more nebulous 'racism' also

" *This, again, is opinion. You fail to take into account Chauvin was questioned on whether to change tactic upon which ignored fellow officers, clearly having the chance to realign his actions, making this wilful ignorance of the situation and distress of the victim. "

My opinion of what will come of the trial, based on the totality of the available evidence, is an opinion? err, yea, of course it is.
I talked about negligence re: Chauvin so how did I fail to take his actions into account?

"You, obviously missed out your thought process here; "failed to inform their viewers" of what, exactly...? "

Many of the points I listed, obviously. And some that I didn't, like Floyd lying to the cops about not being on drugs/the foam around his mouth being from basketball. All things that either give reason not to trust what Floyd is saying or show that the cops, certainly the non-Chauvin cops, couldn't realistically be viewed as being malevolent in the slightest.

"I'm happy to dissect any other opinions, thus misinterpretations, you both have of events."

Opinions aren't necessarily misinterpretations. I'd argue that your high opinion of yourself is a misinterpretation of the reality however.
 
Dax777 said:
@Silva_Spell I'm going to have to disagree here. I think you are right the other cops will probably get their cases dismissed. But Chauvin was just horrible all through.

The fact that he was the senior cop and 2ice ignored the obvious request to lay Floyd on his side to mitigate the possible bout of excited delirium and the fact he continued to kneel on his neck ( whether that obstructed his airways or not) Chauvin is likely a proximate cause of Floyd's death. I think there is a good chance he gets convicted on present evidence.
Click to expand...

Convicted of what, murder? I think that's pretty inconceivable at this point. But then again OJ got off...
 
Ancient Citizen said:
It appears we're at cross purposes, I don't know which it is you're asking about, it may be me, but the vid was the Chicago police chief's statement, I posted an ironic response to a reply. Anyway, as well as the Chicago police comments, the NYC police are now actively backing Trump, as per the vid above.
Click to expand...

I think we are at cross purposes, compounded by Dax 'liking' your post.

Not always sure if that's for the right reasons...
 
@Bigga, I'll address each one of your points. In a bit.

I might even concede a point or 2. But there is a lot to disagree on.
 
Silva_Spell said:
" *this patience soon led to violently trying force the man into the police vehicle "

After much cajoling, humouring and almost pleading. At some point Floyd has to get in the car. And pushing/pulling isn't particularly violent.
Click to expand...

I'm assuming you watched the video, unless your eyes witnessed something mine didn't. These were not kids in a school yard.

Silva_Spell said:
" *Floyd's hands were clearly seen at all times"

False.
Click to expand...

As I've stated, in the other response, body cam can only see so far, not helped by reflections from sunlight, closed doors and raised windows. It is not at the height of eyes, so hands were not 'visible' to the body cam only.

This is NOT subjective. This is fact.

This is further underlined by the 'lack of threat' the officer clearly does not feel, even if his weapon is drawn with one hand and not two (which is the 'threat' default position. His eyes are on the subject at his eyeline, which you cannot see from body cam position.

Silva_Spell said:
" According to the news piece after almost 9 mins into the arrest "

He was first told when he was sat on the floor near his car by the surveillance camera, the same time he was being asked for his name etc.
Click to expand...

You will need to post this evidence or it is merely hearsay to support your story. We can clearly hear the charge said as the victim is being manhandled as he comes out of the police vehicle. At this point, from what has been posted, this is the only time.

Silva_Spell said:
" *This comment is subjective as he was also clearly compliant in parts of the arrest. "

He was momentarily compliant, like when he said "ok, ok I'll get in the car" before immediately resisting again.
Click to expand...

So, you agree. Just say that, then.

Silva_Spell said:
" This is your opinion and you should state this. "

Yes, it is my view that the cops saw through the claim that he wasn't on drugs. [shrug]
Click to expand...

Again, it is your opinion of the event in 'real time' and was not fact at that point in time to anyone. You're making revisionist assertions(now you know he had drugs in his system) that the police could not corroborate in real time as having no evidence that the subject was high. Merely suspicion.

Silva_Spell said:
"*Your point being?"

For multiple reasons it creates reasonable doubt
And it proves that the non-Chauvin cops didn't take chances with Floyd's health despite reasons to doubt him.
Click to expand...

"Reasons" you've not expressed. You've made ONE subjective outcome as to why Floyd was on the ground. And just to counter that narrative, why would officers pin down a potentially ill man if 'health' was one of your brilliant assertions...??

Silva_Spell said:
" *He asked to stand cited on the video above "

What I stated was true.
Click to expand...

Indeed.

Silva_Spell said:
" *I don't recall anyone saying this was 'direct and personal' racism, but have mentioned that this was an illegal maneuver to hold down an arrestee (even cited within police standards must NOT obstruct airway even if aggressive or resisting), thus adding to the statistics of 'systemic racism' of how a demographic is treated over another. "

The knee is legal in Minneapolis
To say that the media hasn't run with the racist police narrative has to be gaslighting.
The facts that much of the media has largely if not completely ignored stand in contrast to the more nebulous 'racism' also
Click to expand...

A) That quote was meant about the board's response. I couldn't recall any actual racism charge at the time.

B) The MSM tend to spin whatever they need to, to make a narrative without concrete evidence. It's called 'sensationalism' and it sells. I pay them little mind, only to get the outline of any subject matter.

Silva_Spell said:
" *This, again, is opinion. You fail to take into account Chauvin was questioned on whether to change tactic upon which ignored fellow officers, clearly having the chance to realign his actions, making this wilful ignorance of the situation and distress of the victim. "

My opinion of what will come of the trial, based on the totality of the available evidence, is an opinion? err, yea, of course it is.
I talked about negligence re: Chauvin so how did I fail to take his actions into account?
Click to expand...

"... Chauvin is a more complicated case but unless the state has an as yet unknown silver bullet he is not going down for murder. We're talking more about negligence than murder and with excited delirium being a possible reason for Floyd's death".

If this isn't opinion, I don't know what is!!

8 mins 46 secs of putting a grown man's body weight on someone's neck. 2 mins of which the victim seizes to move again. Not only did Chauvin fail to listen to his colleagues, he also failed to adhere to the witnesses who told him repeatedly that Floyd was not moving and to get off him.

Possibly "excited delirium" is a strange choice of possible verdict given all the evidence that presents itself!

Silva_Spell said:
"You, obviously missed out your thought process here; "failed to inform their viewers" of what, exactly...? "

Many of the points I listed, obviously. And some that I didn't, like Floyd lying to the cops about not being on drugs/the foam around his mouth being from basketball. All things that either give reason not to trust what Floyd is saying or show that the cops, certainly the non-Chauvin cops, couldn't realistically be viewed as being malevolent in the slightest.
Click to expand...

TYT and co have cited being on drugs should not result in death by cop, so I'm not sure where that accusation comes from? As for the rest of it, malevolence will entirely be subjective in how training comes back to the police and following leadership examples on how to treat an arrested person.

Silva_Spell said:
"I'm happy to dissect any other opinions, thus misinterpretations, you both have of events."

Opinions aren't necessarily misinterpretations. I'd argue that your high opinion of yourself is a misinterpretation of the reality however.
Click to expand...

Sailing extremely close to a personal attack, there. Perhaps I should report you...?

Nah, you're not bright enough to scale the high opinion I have of myself, so let me just finish by saying that at least you acknowledge that 'opinions' can be rooted in misinterpretations also.

Toodle pip.
 
This rioting and looting isn't exactly having positive effects, the Chicago mayor now appears to want police to do something about it, irony huh?

 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Unread Posts

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top