The Scottish Politics thread

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

I see Johnson has effed it up again with his comments on devolution. Sturgeon and Welsh leaders are all over it like manna from heaven...now Johnson is trying to row it back...

‘No10 source: ‘PM always supported devolution but Blair failed to foresee rise of separatists in Scotland. And leaving EU means we must strengthen and protect UK economy with UKIM Bill. Devolution is great - but not when it’s used by separatists + nationalists to break up UK”’

Someones told him about the gas and oil reserves in Scottish Waters.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

Well he is correct, devolution has been a disaster for those that want to maintain the Union. it has also created big divisions in the uk politically. Its given the SNP a soapbox to peddle their devisive nationalist agenda. One of Blairs biggest mistakes along with his illegal wars.

 

[blueparrot]

Well he is correct, devolution has been a disaster for those that want to maintain the Union. it has also created big divisions in the uk politically. Its given the SNP a soapbox to peddle their devisive nationalist agenda. One of Blairs biggest mistakes along with his illegal wars.

Johnson, Brexit and his policies have driven the nationalist cause far more than either devolution, or the SNP. He's the disaster for the union, not Blair, not devolution which wasn't even Blair's thing it was a Labour policy from John Smith.

 

[Coatigan]

Well he is correct, devolution has been a disaster for those that want to maintain the Union. it has also created big divisions in the uk politically. Its given the SNP a soapbox to peddle their devisive nationalist agenda. One of Blairs biggest mistakes along with his illegal wars.

That will no doubt resonate with the determined unionists, both north and south of the 'border' (a silly choice of words by Him btw, if you beleive in unity then you don't believein a border, surely), and most will agree.

The indys will similarly no doubt disagree entirely, and will be annoyed, but, who really cares their mind is made up already.

But how those on the fence and the middle ground 'undecideds' will react to it will be the important question. I personally think it will piss many off. Those that don't necessarily want independence, but have enjoyed the benefits of devolution and a local government more aligned with their social and civic views. If it pushes a percentage further to accepting separation, then, right as he and you may think those comments are (from that stance point), they are no doubt all wrong, and incredibly daft, in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Coatigan]

Funnily enough, independence has hardly been mentioned best part of the year (and i can't describe how welcome i personally have found that). The only time it comes up is either when a poll is carried out, or when the Tories bring it up in a derogatory jibe. The Scottish Tories, really not having absolutely anything else to pursue or campaign on anyway Have to hinge onto it to stay in any way relevant.

 

[BobKowalski]

Well he is correct, devolution has been a disaster for those that want to maintain the Union. it has also created big divisions in the uk politically. Its given the SNP a soapbox to peddle their devisive nationalist agenda. One of Blairs biggest mistakes along with his illegal wars.

I don’t care if Johnson is correct or not, I do care that the guy is such a fucking moron he blabbed it in the first place, given it is just handing ammo to the SNP and furthering those divisions.

Also, with the Tory party becoming the de facto English Nationalist Party with its motto ‘fuck the other nations in our Union’, it’s no wonder there is increasing support for independence in Scotland and a border poll in NI.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

Johnson, Brexit and his policies have driven the nationalist cause far more than either devolution, or the SNP. He's the disaster for the union, not Blair, not devolution which wasn't even Blair's thing it was a Labour policy from John Smith.

i dissagree, labour and blair shot themselves in the foot massively with devolution. Johnson and Cameron are haplessin front of sturgeon and the SNP but it was labour that created the monster in the first place. hard to see otherwise if you look at the timings.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

I don’t care if Johnson is correct or not, I do care that the guy is such a fucking moron he blabbed it in the first place, given it is just handing ammo to the SNP and furthering those divisions.

Also, with the Tory party becoming the de facto English Nationalist Party with its motto ‘fuck the other nations in our Union’, it’s no wonder there is increasing support for independence in Scotland and a border poll in NI.

how do you work that out Bob surely cant be on expenditure lol. Just another unsubstantiated rant from you as usual. Come back with some facts to back up your stance about Scotland being hard done by compared to English regions.

 

[blueparrot]

i dissagree, labour and blair shot themselves in the foot massively with devolution. Johnson and Cameron are haplessin front of sturgeon and the SNP but it was labour that created the monster in the first place. hard to see otherwise if you look at the timings.

A Scotland without devolution would have turned to independance long ago, rule from London as it was 30 -40 years was unsustainable. If you can't see that,and see devolution as a monster, you don't understand Scots or their politics, and I'm not even Scottish and voted no last time as my family did, don't think any of my family will vote no next time.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

A Scotland without devolution would have turned to independance long ago, rule from London as it was 30 -40 years was unsustainable. If you can't see that,and see devolution as a monster, you don't understand Scots or their politics, and I'm not even Scottish and voted no last time as my family did, don't think any of my family will vote no next time.

sure lol, just look at the GE seats the SNP used to get prior to devolution and after.

 

[squirtyflower]

i dissagree, labour and blair shot themselves in the foot massively with devolution. Johnson and Cameron are haplessin front of sturgeon and the SNP but it was labour that created the monster in the first place. hard to see otherwise if you look at the timings.

Ironically enough it’s Blair’s charge to devolution that has led to the Labour Party being swallowed up by the Nationalist MPs they purportedly dislike.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I see Johnson has effed it up again with his comments on devolution. Sturgeon and Welsh leaders are all over it like manna from heaven...now Johnson is trying to row it back...

‘No10 source: ‘PM always supported devolution but Blair failed to foresee rise of separatists in Scotland. And leaving EU means we must strengthen and protect UK economy with UKIM Bill. Devolution is great - but not when it’s used by separatists + nationalists to break up UK”’

Does he mean when a political party that he doesn't like get democratically voted by the Scottish populace to form a government? The voice of the people and all that.

 

[Saddleworth2]

That halfwit Jenrick is on SKY news making ridiculous claims. I don't think he understands the difference between aggressive jingoistic Nationalism and Civic Nationalism.

How the fuck have we got halfwits like him in Parliament never mind in the Cabinet.

I do find it really ironic that the Conservatives are now the party of statist centralisation. That used to be anathema to them.

There is a real opportunity for Keith to be bold and push for further devolution of power away from Westminster not just to Scotland, Wales and NI but to the English regions as well. Burnham has shown that mayoral powers can be used for the benefit of local people, Andy Street in Birmingham has done the same, but will the Tories see that or will there control freakery take over.

was that a rhetorical question?

 

[blueparrot]

Ironically enough it’s Blair’s charge to devolution that has led to the Labour Party being swallowed up by the Nationalist MPs they purportedly dislike.

It isn't.After devolution Labour were strong,and in government. It's labours charge to the left and irrelevance that has led to the SNP rise.Lets not forget the SNP rise didn't lead to independence support as we the referendum showed. The surge of support in independance support is recent and down to Brexit and Johnson.
Support for independance and support for an SNP in government aren't the same thing or don't have to be.

 

[Saddleworth2]

i dissagree, labour and blair shot themselves in the foot massively with devolution. Johnson and Cameron are haplessin front of sturgeon and the SNP but it was labour that created the monster in the first place. hard to see otherwise if you look at the timings.

From the House of Commons library.

In a speech to the Scottish Labour Party conference in 1994, the then leader of the UK Labour Party, John Smith, referred to a Scottish Parliament as “the settled will of the Scottish people”, the creation of which would form the “cornerstone” of his party’s plan for “democratic renewal” in the United Kingdom.

The poster was not saying it wasn't a Labour policy, rather that it was Smith that originally embedded it in Labour policy and manifesto rather than Blair.

From my perspective, as a Scot, Devolution although not perfect, has been successful in aligning government to the will of the people of Scotland. That nationalism is more popular than it was demonstrates the dislike many in Scotland feel about the Westminster Government and its policies. After all, we can't simply vote them out can we?

The UK would be a better place with more devolution. I wish England had it by Region rather than everything being dictated by the clowns in Westminster.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

From the House of Commons library.

In a speech to the Scottish Labour Party conference in 1994, the then leader of the UK Labour Party, John Smith, referred to a Scottish Parliament as “the settled will of the Scottish people”, the creation of which would form the “cornerstone” of his party’s plan for “democratic renewal” in the United Kingdom.

The poster was not saying it wasn't a Labour policy, rather that it was Smith that originally embedded it in Labour policy and manifesto rather than Blair.

From my perspective, as a Scot, Devolution although not perfect, has been successful in aligning government to the will of the people of Scotland. That nationalism is more popular than it was demonstrates the dislike many in Scotland feel about the Westminster Government and its policies. After all, we can't simply vote them out can we?

The UK would be a better place with more devolution. I wish England had it by Region rather than everything being dictated by the clowns in Westminster.

if only you had the hand dealt to you like the English regions have by Westminster then you would have a real reason to dislike Westminster and its policies.

Its never been hard to tell the difference between a Scotsman with a grievance and a ray of sunshine as PG Woodhouse once said.

 

[Coatigan]

i dissagree, labour and blair shot themselves in the foot massively with devolution. Johnson and Cameron are haplessin front of sturgeon and the SNP but it was labour that created the monster in the first place. hard to see otherwise if you look at the timings.

You know, i can see that arguement. It is the 'once you open that box' logic, and isn't necessarily misplaced.

The question maybe is how long could you have kept that box shut in the first place, and at what consequences. The brexit box maybe being a prime example, look how vile it got before it finally happened.

Maybe things were always heading towards a parting of ways, one way or another, maybe devolution is 'the disaster - that arguably sped it up' maybe it slowed it down. Who can say.

Given that Scotland chose to stay in the Union, with devolution, i would argue it slowed it down or maybe even ground it to a forseeable halt. Yes the SNP would have continues to shout it, but without Cameron's next day undermining of the concept of unity and devolution, without Brexit, and now Johnson, it would have been meaningless.

Boris only considers Devolution as a step towards Independence, because he and his party before him did not know how to work with the spirit of it, and won't recognize those as steps (just as if not more significant) in leading to what may well now ultimately be a breaking apart of the union.

 

[Saddleworth2]

if only you had the hand dealt to you like the English regions have by Westminster then you would have a real reason to dislike Westminster and its policies.

Its never been hard to tell the difference between a Scotsman with a grievance and a ray of sunshine as PG Woodhouse once said.

insults already. Dear me. I wish the English regions had devolution. Have already said that. Hardly a winning argument for the status quo though mate. You have it bad but we are even worse.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

Well he is correct, devolution has been a disaster for those that want to maintain the Union. it has also created big divisions in the uk politically. Its given the SNP a soapbox to peddle their devisive nationalist agenda. One of Blairs biggest mistakes along with his illegal wars.

To be a 'Unionist' Party you actually have to do something thats conducive to a 'Union' and make sure that decisions made don't impact, damage and hurt.... Conservatives have done what they have always done ...... look after their own interests.

how do you work that out Bob surely cant be on expenditure lol. Just another unsubstantiated rant from you as usual. Come back with some facts to back up your stance about Scotland being hard done by compared to English regions.

We steal the oil and gas income from them

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

insults already. Dear me. I wish the English regions had devolution. Have already said that. Hardly a winning argument for the status quo though mate. You have it bad but we are even worse.

No insults in what i posted whatsoever. so stop inventing things lol.

Anyway weve been here before. I have no issue with an independent Scotland. But until then I firmly beileve UK expenditure should be distributed on a needs basis not based on political expediency as you do.