Keir Starmer

There's an excellent article in The Spectator which describes exactly what you say.


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Paul Embery the author of the article gets pelters on twitter for being pro-brexit from the FBFE mob.

He is a big wig in the FBU and is often talked about as an advocate of Blue Labour. People i feel often get Blue Labour mixed up with the Liberal left in the same way us on the "hard" left get mixed up with the Liberal left.

He makes some great points though. I saw a video of him appearing on triggernomtry on you tube the other day and he talks a lot of sense.
 
I think it is self descriptive in that it means they are not the owners of capital, they are the servants of capital.

The working class is not just about the workers, but those who rely on the workers too, such as the partners of the workers, the older generation who have ended their days of being a worker, the children of workers and those without work who want and need to work but cant for whatever reason.

The working class have been the class this countries wealth has been built upon, it is the working class whose defence of this country we rely upon, its the working class who educate our children, empty our bins, sweep our streets, nurse us back to health, build our houses, police our streets, it is the class of the ordinary man and woman who just wants to do there best and live a decent life in a warm house with food on the table. Can clothe their kids and maybe have two weeks at the seaside once a year. They want the streets to be safe so its possible to live without fear, they want their kids to go to a school where they have books and maybe go for a pint or go to match when they can. I don't think the working class want much but i do believe it should be respected and respectful. The workers shouldn't be exploited by the capitalist class and should be paid a fair wage and work in a safe environment.

I also believe that culture should be available to all, not just the capitalist class. The working class can enjoy the good things in life like going to the theatre or even the Opera, they dont have to of course, but it should be available as it enriches us all. I am also a huge fan of libraries, it is a way for the working class to self educate and nothing to me beats the enjoyment of a story well told.
Just reading Yuval Noah Harari's book Sapiens and he talks about the need for society to have hierarchies, such as the Indian caste system or the Noble-Commoner-Slave hierarchy in Ancient Rome & Greece. Such hierarchies then gave rise to racial "hierarchies" where one race is deemed to be superior or inferior to another.

The class system is another form of that.
 
I think it is self descriptive in that it means they are not the owners of capital, they are the servants of capital.

The working class is not just about the workers, but those who rely on the workers too, such as the partners of the workers, the older generation who have ended their days of being a worker, the children of workers and those without work who want and need to work but cant for whatever reason.

The working class have been the class this countries wealth has been built upon, it is the working class whose defence of this country we rely upon, its the working class who educate our children, empty our bins, sweep our streets, nurse us back to health, build our houses, police our streets, it is the class of the ordinary man and woman who just wants to do there best and live a decent life in a warm house with food on the table. Can clothe their kids and maybe have two weeks at the seaside once a year. They want the streets to be safe so its possible to live without fear, they want their kids to go to a school where they have books and maybe go for a pint or go to match when they can. I don't think the working class want much but i do believe it should be respected and respectful. The workers shouldn't be exploited by the capitalist class and should be paid a fair wage and work in a safe environment.

I also believe that culture should be available to all, not just the capitalist class. The working class can enjoy the good things in life like going to the theatre or even the Opera, they dont have to of course, but it should be available as it enriches us all. I am also a huge fan of libraries, it is a way for the working class to self educate and nothing to me beats the enjoyment of a story well told.
I think it is self descriptive in that it means they are not the owners of capital, they are the servants of capital.
I am genuinely not trying to be difficult or smart because I think this is an important question. So is a home owner who works in financial services and is the beneficiary if share schemes working class? Is a sole business proprietor or a self employed contractor working class? Because all of them are as likely to have some socialist beliefs as they are to be right wing evangelists? I do think this class thing is not helpful to Labour.
 
People are not born as white nationalists, they are propagandised into supporting white nationalism and fascism. The EDL and Britain First, throw in UKIP as well have an appeal because when times are hard fascism thrives. One of the reasons i really believe brexit has to done quickly is that getting done it closes down an avenue of propaganda and reinforces that Democracy has been the answer. I know that may result in further hard times but that is when a Socialist message can be used to full effect. It can concentrate on the area's @Saddleworth2 mentioned in his fine post earlier in the thread.

Caring and blaming has to be reversed, instead of blaming immigration for societies ill's there has to be a reinforcement of how society can benefit from immigration. This can be done with the NHS, the benefits of a Doctor from Iran saving your child's life should be exhorted, because even the most overt White Nationalist will be happy to see their child's life saved. Immigration can both be controlled and at the same time have its virtue's extolled. I have come to the conclusion though that the only way that immigration can be successful is that we do allay the fears of the those who feel overwhelmed by the pace of change and acknowledge that those fears are genuine and are not misguided racism. The working class have to be listened to and not treated as imbecile's. Policies that help the working class such as good schools, where their kids get a place, law and order, decent health provision, access to libraries, decent public services, good council housing, a proper welfare system, decent pensions, an honest job that pays a fair wage and a pride in their community will all help immigration seem less of an issue. There really is no difference between the white lad who works on a building site and the Asian lad who works on a building site, there is no difference between the white lad who works in a warehouse and a black lad who works in a warehouse. They get paid the same, they have the same hopes and dreams for their kids, they watch the same football teams, drive the same cars, live in similar housing, because the one thing they really do have in common is that they are working class.

The Labour Party has to make an offer to the whole of the working class, work from the bottom up not like the Tories who work from the top downwards. If the working class has the necessary solidarity and sees that the issues affect them all, then Labour can win.

I'm sorry mate, but this old time religion of class solidarity is seductive, but ultimately hollow.

The Affluent Worker study of 1962, which tried to explain why the working class had abandoned Labour began the slow realisation within the Labour establishment of why it fails time and time again.

And since then things have only got worse.

The destruction of manufacturing, the tearing down of working class institutions, the atomisation of the work force, the gig economy and Labour's seemingly benign adoption of equality of opportunity, which, apart from being utterly disingenuous, was nothing more than an admittance, that the only way for a working class lad or lassie to improve their lot was to get out of the working class.

Dignity through work, strong working class communities, housing, education, health, a proper welfare system, who's going to pay for these things? Not corporations, which means it will fall on the middle class and they're not willing to pay for it, they feel no solidarity with the working class, they're not going to fork out for other people's free stuff.

As for multiculturalism, that's for the fairies, a lie sold as cover for cheap labour.

There is a dominant culture in this country, it's difficult to define, but it's keenly felt by those who fall outside it. When so many members of our ethnic minorities feel alienated from mainstream society, its always blamed on racism, but that is only a partial answer, they are alienated from the mainstream because they aren't the mainstream, because the mainstream is not multiculturalism and to keep banging on that it is, is a lie.

So you have the spectacle of middle class Labour MP's griping on about the reactionary nature of so many white working class communities, they're inability to embrace the joys of being global citizens in a multicultural Britain! While at the same time you get savvy, but unscrupulous, right wingers exploiting that. Hence Brexit, hence endless Tory governments.

And your solution? A return to Attlee socialism? A mythical wonderland of working class solidarity? Not only is there no road back there, that Britain has gone, but it misreads history. Churchill scraped past Attlee in the early 50's because he promised an end to rationing, the socialist dream was defeated by the promise of an extra ounce of butter on a slice of toast!

The reason you're a dreamer mate, is you don't appreciate that the things that divide us are stronger than those that unite us. Self interest, even petty self interest, beats class solidarity every time and it has done, almost without interruption, for the last 70 years.
 
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Peston is trying it on. "This feels like Labour confusing two very separate issues of important principle." They are not separate are they? Tier 3 means businesses go bust without financial help. How can you separate that?
 
Peston is trying it on. "This feels like Labour confusing two very separate issues of important principle." They are not separate are they? Tier 3 means businesses go bust without financial help. How can you separate that?
Then why doesn’t he fight for the end of tier three lockdowns?
 
I'm sorry mate, but this old time religion of class solidarity is seductive, but ultimately hollow.
Only because we have allowed it to become hollow.
The Affluent Worker study of 1962, which tried to explain why the working class had abandoned Labour began the slow realisation within the Labour establishment of why it fails time and time again.

And since then things have only got worse.
Only had a quick glance at this as its not something i am familiar with but this struck me and is a quote from the study.

"Interviews with the workers showed little sign of a move to middle class - instead, affluent workers seemed to hold on to their working class identity and attitudes. The researchers concluded that growing affluence does not entail the end of class, or of class politics; on the contrary, class remains an important part even of a prosperous, affluent society."

I will read more when i have the time.
The destruction of manufacturing, the tearing down of working class institutions, the atomisation of the work force, the gig economy and Labour's seemingly benign adoption of equality of opportunity, which, apart from being utterly disingenuous, was nothing more than an admittance, that the only way for a working class lad or lassie to improve their lot was to get out of the working class.
Why do you think equality of opportunity is disingenuous?
Dignity through work, strong working class communities, housing, education, health, a proper welfare system, who's going to pay for these things? Not corporations, which means it will fall on the middle class and they're not willing to pay for it, they feel no solidarity with the working class, they're not going to fork out for other people's free stuff.
I despise the wording free stuff. It is not only the working class who receive "free stuff" and that is why i support the concept of universalism. The who is going to pay is an argument of the right. They always find money to drop bombs but struggle to find money to feed kids. It is about priorities and if the middle class would rather we drop bombs than feed kids then tax them enough to pay for the bombs. :))

Seriously though society has to have all parts contribute and do so in a manner that makes everyone feel valued. If corporations pay there fair share then value them, if they don't penalise them. The middle class and the Upper class are recipients of free stuff dependent on how you see free stuff.


As for multiculturalism, that's for the fairies, a lie sold as cover for cheap labour.

There is a dominant culture in this country, it's difficult to define, but it's keenly felt by those who fall outside it. When so many members of our ethnic minorities feel alienated from mainstream society, its always blamed on racism, but that is only a partial answer, they are alienated from the mainstream because they aren't the mainstream, because the mainstream is not multiculturalism and to keep banging on that it is, is a lie.
Multiculturalism is what we have and we have to make the best of it. I do believe that we have more common in class terms than we have differences in ethnic background.
So you have the spectacle of middle class Labour MP's griping on about the reactionary nature of so many white working class communities, they're inability to embrace the joys of being global citizens in a multicultural Britain! While at the same time you get savvy, but unscrupulous, right wingers exploiting that. Hence Brexit, hence endless Tory governments.
The lack of working class MPs in the Labour party is telling. The old firebrands have gone, replaced by Oxbridge PPE graduates parachuted into seats they have little in common with and little understanding of.
And your solution? A return to Attlee socialism? A mythical wonderland of working class solidarity? Not only is there no road back there, that Britain has gone, but it misreads history. Churchill scraped past Attlee in the early 50's because he promised an end to rationing, the socialist dream was defeated by the promise of an extra ounce of butter on a slice of toast!
Not really Atlee, I would have gone further, although he was a great man and showed what could be achieved. The election where Churchill beat Atlee was a difficult one to quantify although i accept that was one of the factors. Hardly surprising after WW2. What Atlee did achieve though was dragging the Tories leftwards and they became comfortable with the NHS, council housing and the social consensus. The Tories always adapt to the circumstances though.
The reason you're a dreamer mate, is you don't appreciate that the things that divide us are stronger than those that unite us. Self interest, even petty self interest, beats class solidarity every time and it has done, almost without interruption, for the last 70 years.
I am a dreamer, there is nothing wrong with that. I do believe people work better when they work together, you could say i was a proponent of Collectivist Socialism as i do believe in a strong state and that there are more people damaged by the free market than enjoy the fruits of the free market..

Great post though mate, real food for thought.
 
Peston is trying it on. "This feels
like Labour confusing two very separate issues of important principle." They are not separate are they? Tier 3 means businesses go bust without financial help. How can you separate that?
How can anyone listen to someone so deliberately confusing? Moreover, how can they be taken in so easily? It's obvious flim flam.

He's a public menace. The answer is; Pestie's made up a new rule that you if you think Tier 3 could be better managed than so far, you are missing the governments message - which is

"Tier 3 - or Full hospitals!"

He's RIGHT to ignore that, because it's not as tho Tier 3 as it was last time, was thought to be working that well at reducing the rate of transmission - AND yet it still cost the industries and workers extremely heavily. There's no other tweaks or suggestions or measures that can be made? It's literally saying that there's only one possibility for Tier 3 and that is Tier 3 as it is laid out. Which is Tier 3 as it was, with some odd changes. It's not like it was given to the Government exactly as they pushed it out. It was their compromise. Why should Starmer make believe that there was no other way than those exact compromises - none whatsoever?

Peston reminds me of the guys who put the 30 minutes WMD thing on the front cover of the tabloids. Lost. Very, very lost indeed. Nice contact book Robert. Keep you at the forefront for a good few years. Shame about the job you foist on the rest of us.
 
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It looks like only the Tories will be voting on it. All other parties are abstaining.

A dry run for a Brexit deal vote? Why should any other party share the blame for failed Tory policies?
 
It looks like only the Tories will be voting on it. All other parties are abstaining.

A dry run for a Brexit deal vote? Why should any other party share the blame for failed Tory policies?
From the Guardian:

Starmer will tell his MPs he does not believe Labour should directly oppose the measures because of the need to keep control of the virus. But he will say that, by abstaining, the party can signal that the financial support for hospitality businesses is inadequate.

Starmer, who met England’s chief medical officer, Chris Whitty, on Monday night, said coronavirus “remains a serious threat to the public’s health” and Labour accepted the need for continued restrictions. “However, I remain deeply concerned that Boris Johnson’s government has failed to use this latest lockdown to put a credible health and economic plan in place,” he said.

“We still don’t have a functioning testing system, public health messaging is confused, and businesses across the country are crying out for more effective economic support to get them through the winter months.

“It is short-term government incompetence that is causing long-term damage to the British economy. It is imperative that the government gets control of the virus so that our NHS can be protected and our economy recovers faster.”

Interesting that the Fail coverage of Labour position is quite similar continuing their recent trend towards being more critical of Johnson and his government (other than Gove).
 
In a new poll conducted by Labour List which is a Labour supporting news organisation shows how divided the Labour party is. Of course this poll can be questioned as anybody can claim to be a Labour party member.

46% Say Keith was right to remove the whip from Corbyn
48% say Keith was wrong to remove the whip from Corbyn

I assume the other 6% still think Tony Blair is leader.

There is also a factional divide in the party based on income.

83% of members on less than 20k PA agreed with the 2019 manifesto and 55% think the party is heading in the wrong direction under Keith and 62% thought removing the whip from Corbyn was wrong.

Is the party in danger of pandering to the middle class at the expanse of the low waged working class is a question worthy of consideration although Marx says Income is not an indication of class.
 

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