The Scottish Politics thread

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mancity2012_eamo said:
I suppose a fair question would be, what exactly do English Nationalists want? Their own parliament? separate parliaments for all, Scotland/NI/Wales as well.

What’s the purpose of a UK then?

Maybe English problems are as much emanating from a British Westminster government in the UK system as they are from Brussels?
Maybe inevitably the answer is the break up of a union within a union and the components then decide for themselves where they want to align their futures.

Here’s an article from last August that may be of interest.

Edit:
Sorry put the wrong article up originally.
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It’s the EDL mate that are examples of English nationalism.

The SNP is the same shit but rather than hating brown people it’s repackaged as much more sophisticated and into an actual party but it’s the English they hate.

It’s a political movement with no sense in what it’s doing other than pushing for one thing that’s really going to harm them, they know this but want it for ideological reasons and that’s the style of politics I despise.

People fall hook line and sinker for it.
 
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Saddleworth2 said:
Are there? A party capable of turfing the Tories out of government in Westminster? What party would that be then mate?
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I think Starmer has a very good chance of winning the next GE. I like to judge governments after a period of time in office. But its clear that Johnsons government have made some cataclysmic errors in their handling of the covid crisis with regards to health and the economy. Clearly the oposition could have made the same errors or worse, but the fact remains they didn't as they wernt in power.
 
Ban-jani said:
Oh and imagine an English politician launching a nationalist agenda on St George’s day.

What she’s done is pure jingoism.
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Agree, for me that was a pretty poor choice, by any standard.
 
Ban-jani said:
It’s the EDL mate that are examples of English nationalism.

The SNP is the same shit but rather than hating brown people it’s repackaged as much more sophisticated and into an actual party but it’s the English they hate.

It’s a political movement with no sense in what it’s doing other than pushing for one thing that’s really going to harm them, they know this but want it for ideological reasons and that’s the style of politics I despise.

People fall hook line and sinker for it.
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Sorry, but that is complete nonsense and you know it.

Whether it has sense or not as a movement, fair enough, i can see how that is up for interpretation and opinion. The rest though, just plain wrong.
 
Ban-jani said:
It’s the EDL mate that are examples of English nationalism.

The SNP is the same shit but rather than hating brown people it’s repackaged as much more sophisticated and into an actual party but it’s the English they hate.

It’s a political movement with no sense in what it’s doing other than pushing for one thing that’s really going to harm them, they know this but want it for ideological reasons and that’s the style of politics I despise.

People fall hook line and sinker for it.
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Well put, although I would probably put them on a par with UKIP/Brexit party rather than the EDL tbf. There is also a huge ideological inconsistency in their pro-EU / anti UK stance which they are for some reason never really pressed on in terms of detail. That of course can be turned on its head - it is difficult to justify a UK leave position and be against Scottish independence - many of the arguments for and against are exactly the same.
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
Well put, although I would probably put them on a par with UKIP/Brexit party rather than the EDL tbf. There is also a huge ideological inconsistency in their pro-EU / anti UK stance which they are for some reason never really pressed on in terms of detail. That of course can be turned on its head - it is difficult to justify a UK leave position and be against Scottish independence - many of the arguments for and against are exactly the same.
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Carry on.
 
mancity2012_eamo said:
I suppose a fair question would be, what exactly do English Nationalists want? Their own parliament? separate parliaments for all, Scotland/NI/Wales as well.

What’s the purpose of a UK then?

Maybe English problems are as much emanating from a British Westminster government in the UK system as they are from Brussels?
Maybe inevitably the answer is the break up of a union within a union and the components then decide for themselves where they want to align their futures.

Here’s an article from last August that may be of interest.

Edit:
Sorry put the wrong article up originally.
Click to expand...
I found so many truths in that article, thanks for posting it.

'Labour has failed to establish a commanding poll lead among the same voters despite competing with an unpopular and incompetent government. Even electoral reformers and democracy campaigners shy away from recognising English aspirations to enjoy the same level of democracy as Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. No mainstream party is willing to speak directly to England.

Many English-identifying voters want left-of-centre policies on the economy, public ownership, redistribution and the welfare state, but progressives’ reluctance to engage with their English agenda has left them in the hands of Brexiteers of one shade or another. Promises of more policing, NHS spending and immigration controls, as Brexit looms, suggest that Johnson and his adviser Dominic Cummings know which buttons to press. But the Brexiteer-English alliance is by no means secure. Leaving aside the difficulty of actually delivering, the inescapable logic of Brexit is to drive global market forces ever more deeply into the very communities desperate for protection from them.'

In my opinion, this is where Labour should concentrate their efforts. The Tory government will find it impossible to deliver on their promises (plus ca change). What will keep them in power is the vacuum left by an ineffective Labour Party. By addressing English politics; the inequality between regions, the lack of devolved power, the London centric investment, ironically a left of centre, credible, Labour political proposition, might just start to gain ground in Scotland.
 
Coatigan said:
Sorry, but that is complete nonsense and you know it.

Whether it has sense or not as a movement, fair enough, i can see how that is up for interpretation and opinion. The rest though, just plain wrong.
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There’s obviously huge differences in how they behave, the structure, the violence, the fact the SNP is actually a political party with some respect behind it but it’s the same area of nationalist politics. The EDL want the English identity to be saved from brown people and the SNP want Scotland saved from the English, more specifically English politics.

Don’t get me wrong, I’d rather have the SNP over for tea but it’s the same area of politics I dislike, that’s my point.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
Unfortunately there isn't a good answer.
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Given the way the Tories have handled COVID-19 and the potential for Brexit to go very badly, Scotland rallying around Labour would be it very interesting.

Especially if Starmer can appeal to moderate Tories, the kind who leant Blair their vote in the 90’s/00’s.
 
Churchlawtonblue said:
aw are you upset that I happen to think Sturgeon is a politician that will do anything to get some headlines. Like most politicians I might add. Get a grip for goodness sake.
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Labour led policy, by MSP Monica Lennon over the last 3 years.

But don't let the facts get in the way of your agenda.
 
Coatigan said:
You are bang on about that divide, i have been stressing this every now and again. And how big it is getting. And if this thread is even a teeny sampler, comments like we pay for your perks, if it was up to england you'd be independent etc. show it, i actually can't off the top of my head think of any nationalistc jibes from any of the scottish posters here, notbin a while anywlway. Yes ok we can debate whose oil it is (i don'treally care about the oil tbf), that it is a nation not a region etc, but that f.u. sentiment, is pretty damn one sided.

Brexit has very much sped that up, not just in difference, but in the buoyant attitudes that have become acceptable commonplace. Indyref started it coming out to the surface. I would like to think most of those making such remarks didnt think that way pre 2014, but who knows. Either way, pretty damn entrenched now. Whereas, from how i understand what i read, many of the scot posters still seem to have some degree of flexibility and room to make minds up.

I myself feel that, economy, politics and technicalities aside, socially and culturally, the differences are so vast now that i genuinely can't see a way back, the way things are going. Both politicians also tapping into this and using these ideals to sell themselves and get numbers behind them doesn't help any. Nicola knows fine well she is winning votes by policies that care for all parts of society of any background, because people welcome that. Boris similarly has made a point of prioritising those who 'feel left behind' or think 'that they deserve more'. It's not like people don't see through that. Thing is, with nicola, i take it as a bit less cynical, as she has at least been a lefty activist all her life. With boris, i see it as opportunism, like his two letters on brexit.

It isn't in the slightest bit pleasant, typing the above btw, and this divide is certainly not one thing i like at all.
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Good post fella I hope people don’t move from historical taking the piss out of each other into something more unpleasant. Unfortunately I’m pretty sure it will happen. The U.K. has never been so obviously divided and that is also within each country individually.
 
pee dubya said:
Labour led policy, by MSP Monica Lennon over the last 3 years.

But don't let the facts get in the way of your agenda.
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No agenda here pal. Thanks for the info by the way. I dont particularly like any politicians. Sturgeon is little different to many others.
 
Coatigan said:
I myself feel that socially and culturally, the differences are so vast now that i genuinely can't see a way back, the way things are going. Both politicians also tapping into this and using these ideals to sell themselves and get numbers behind them doesn't help any. Nicola knows fine well she is winning votes by policies that care for all parts of society of any background, because people welcome that. Boris similarly has made a point of prioritising those who 'feel left behind' or think 'that they deserve more'. It's not like people don't see through that. Thing is, with nicola, i take it as a bit less cynical, as she has at least been a lefty activist all her life. With boris, i see it as opportunism, like his two letters on brexit.

It isn't in the slightest bit pleasant, typing the above btw, and this divide is certainly not one thing i like at all.
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I don't understand how a Manchester City supporting Scot can think there's such a huge cultural divide between the two nations.
 
So I cant speak for the SNP because I am not a member and have only voted for them once in my lifetime.

There is a myth though that Scottish Nationalism is all about anti english sentiment and from my perspective it really isn't. Its simply the ability to make our own rules, our own mistakes and have an elected parliament that has the mandate of the Scottish people. Thats it.

There may be a loony minority who dislike everything English and that toad Alec Salmon was in that camp imo. But there are loonies and racists in every country in the world and we are no different. That is in no way representative of the way the vast majority of Scots think.
 
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