Another new Brexit thread

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And the penny is starting to drop with German taxpayers.....

And this is at the heart of why Merkel and Macron are not aligned. As the article set out quite simply:

"Fourth and finally, the Franco-German steamroller is still there, but each of its partners has a special relationship with one of the other groups. France is the unacknowledged champion of big-spending Mediterranean Europe. Germany was the fifth member of the “frugal five” until the EU summit in July. Those commitments had quietly separated Germany from France so that even when they were singing “More Europe” in harmony, they intended different things by it. To President Macron, it was a roundabout path to ambitious programs to build more-centralized European institutions and to mutualize EU debt. Germany’s greatest fear, on the other hand, was that the EU might become a “transfer community” in which the German taxpayer ended up funding the lazy lifestyles of Southern Europe."
Germany (by far the biggest contributor) as a net contributor basically puts in pretty much exactly the amount Poland and Hungary combined take out.
 
It’s fucking disgusting what this country has become. One of the major points of the EU in the first place was to bring European countries closer together in the time following WW2 so that we’d never see conflict between our nations again (we haven’t). Now we’re ripping that apart and waking up to headlines about sending in gunboats. Shameful.

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Do you know - Remainers bang on about Daily Mail readers

Yet I only ever see articles from the Mail and express posted from Remainers

Weird that
 
Shhhh - don't talk about the events of the future

As I said - inconvenient truths - and this is just one of the questions

I am sure that the Mediterranean countries have all totally overall their policies to comply - so this will be a one-off.......lol

Oh - of course - this has nothing to do with the UK has it - forever more we will be free of the impacts of the Eurozone - lol
Maybe the euro was designed to fail...
 
You say that, but people under 50, the younger generations, voted to remain by a landslide. By in large it was the older people that tipped the vote and they’re going to be retired or no longer with us while those younger generations have to work through it. I guess what I’m saying is that it’s kinda weird to celebrate being free of the EU for generations when those upcoming generations wanted to remain.

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That's life I'm afraid mate - My generation didn't get much of a say in Thatcher being PM, and it was the same voting demographic you describe above that took us into Europe in the 70's. Democracy is all well and good until it produces the result you didn't vote for I'm afraid.
 
You say that, but people under 50, the younger generations, voted to remain by a landslide. By in large it was the older people that tipped the vote and they’re going to be retired or no longer with us while those younger generations have to work through it. I guess what I’m saying is that it’s kinda weird to celebrate being free of the EU for generations when those upcoming generations wanted to remain.

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Sorry - but that simple fact has little - in fact nothing - to do with the point that I was making, which was....

Johnson being a total buffoon and a bit of a **** is not the reason why the UK should give in to totally unreasonable demands from the EU

People should be able to hate Johnson - whilst still look to achieve the best outcomes for the UK from the negotiations

Trust me - as a Leaver - I can assure you that I did not with for May or Johnson to be the PM at this time. Being a Leaver does not equate to be a Johnson fan or even a Tory - despite what some on here suggest

At least we are lucky enough (IMO) that Johnson appears to be controlled by people that have more backbone and sense (well I might be saying different tomorrow)
 
I meant walk away from the talks, not drag the UK into the middle of the Atlantic.

The remain argument, is an argument for more capitalism at the expense of the working class. That is an OK argument to make if you are pro-capitalist and love free markets, but the remain side is in effect only arguing for the status quo. If the remain side had made an argument for integration and federalisation, an elected President, an EU army, an EU wide welfare system, an EU wide tax system and an EU wide Health service free at the point of use for all. Then maybe my head would have been turned, because it would have offered a chance for a Democratic Socialist Europe based around EU wide political parties, such as Labour joining with Bloco De Esquerda and other Leftist EU parties to push for a Socialist EU.

Instead a vote for remain would leave you under the auspices of Capitalism and RW neo-liberal orthodoxy. I can not and could not support that, it is against my principles.

I am a pro-capitalist, free markets guy, along with open borders and would be up for a more federal Europe.

I‘m also for strong welfare systems, greening the economy and strongly pro equal rights.

Definitely, not a socialist though :)
 
We really need to be careful with this talk of gunboats and sending in the navy to protect our fishing rights.

The last time we got all high and mighty about our navy protecting fishing - against the almighty Iceland no less - we got our arse handed to us in no uncertain terms.
 
I went back to find your analysis of that article I linked the other day - I would have referred to it earlier if I had seen it - sorry I did not and missing it was the only reason.

I see your comments to be pretty much reserved to the aspects of general relationships referred to in the article. Really limited to areas of what could be considered to be 'normal tensions'.

I am assuming that was not deliberate - given the depth of analysis that I have seen from you previously I would have expected you to pick up on the more fundamental areas that the article raised - but to be fair I realise that my initial post could have been deemed to be a bit 'high-handed' and I should have been more explicit. So I will on one subject - debt mutualisation:

1/ What are your general thoughts about the EU aims of achieving debt mutualisation across the EU - what do you think will be achieved and what damage could be done to the Eurozone?

2/ What are your specific thoughts about how that is going to work for the 'Frugal four': Holland, Sweden, Denmark, and Austria?

3/ What do you think that it will mean specifically for Germany - and by extension and related to debt mutualisation - can you understand why Germany have been/were/are keen for the UK to Remain in the EU?

4/ Why do you think that the subject has caused a rift in the Franco/German relationship - but also caused Germany to abandon the Frugal four?

5/ What do you think that it could have meant for the UK over the next 10-20 years if we had Remained in the EU?

6/ Given the prevailing conditions of the Mediterranean Europe group — Greece, Italy, Spain, and Portugal and many other more recent members resulting from the 2004 and 2007 enlargements that are seeking more and more money for staying in the Euro - do you see it as a one-off exercise or will it be required to be repeated? - what are the implications of that?

Also - here are some associated questions that are not specifically touched upon in or logically flowing from the report, but I think are quite relevant and I would really appreciate your views on

What 'motivating characteristic' would you suggest that the countries that joined the EU through the 2004 and 2007 enlargements had in common? and how many of these countries are 'contributors'?

And, similarly, what 'motivating characteristic' would those countries identified as future members have in common? and how many of these countries would be 'contributors'?

How many countries that are currently independent and potential contributors are seeking accession?

Perhaps these would be more interesting questions to debate rather than the level to which the thread has sunk to - afterall, achieving the raising of the thread content up was an aspiration of yours.

You have in the past encouraged me to post openly on the forum rather than in PMs - I wonder if raising such questions as these will lead you to realise why I might have preferred PMs.
Golly, an exam!
Haven‘t done one of them since my Banking exams.
I will probably pick the first of your questions and expand. We can see how we get on with that before I spend a lot of time on this.

you Will have noted albeit you don’t mention it that my assessment of Hungary and Poland position was on the mark.

Seeing how you are encouraging intelligent debate on the forum, here is a question for you. What is your assessment of the implication of no deal on the U.K. in 2021? Impacts on the economy, industry, fishing Edit: (for some reason some of my post has been dropped), the individual, the Government and the Opposition. Not interested in the medium or long term, just your assessment of the next year.
It’s fucking disgusting what this country has become. One of the major points of the EU in the first place was to bring European countries closer together in the time following WW2 so that we’d never see conflict between our nations again (we haven’t). Now we’re ripping that apart and waking up to headlines about sending in gunboats. Shameful.

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I read that and was outraged to see our little princes and princesses are being threatened by gunboats. Is there no depth Johnson is willing to trawl. (ubiquitous fishing pun alert)
 
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We really need to be careful with this talk of gunboats and sending in the navy to protect our fishing rights.

The last time we got all high and mighty about our navy protecting fishing - against the almighty Iceland no less - we got our arse handed to us in no uncertain terms.

To be fair, it’s a lot easier preventing fishing from happening than preventing someone else stopping you fishing. The UK tried the latter in the 70s, this time we’ll be Iceland.
 
It’s outrageous that the fishery protection squadron will be at sea doing its job.

That is not what is being portrayed, nor is that the message being sent.

People (okay morons) read the headlines, and buy the sentiment and that sentiment is not people going about their normal job.

We had this shite with Patel and ‘Supreme Overlord Commander of the Channel Fleet against Dinghies’. Arseholing bollocks from start to finish, but people (okay Brexiteers) lap it up.
 
To be fair, it’s a lot easier preventing fishing from happening than preventing someone else stopping you fishing. The UK tried the latter in the 70s, this time we’ll be Iceland.

Yes, I’m sure conflict with European fishing vessels is what you are gagging to see (so much for ‘Europeans are our best buddies and we just love Europe’), but it will end in tears, and more negotiations and then a deal, but one birthed in bad blood and rancor.

It‘s not like we haven’t seen this play a thousand times before.
 
The European Commission has decided that no EU state should begin to vaccinate until all EU states are ready to vaccinate. So the German elderly will just have to wait until the slowest member is ready. This will probably be Romania.

And who will be the first group vaccinated on the great EU 'Vaccination Day'? 40,000 people 'from the Brussels area'.

Some Germans aren't very happy about it.

A tad stultifying this EU bureaucracy isn't it?
Still, if Ursula and Michel get the jabs before 85 year olds they'll be able to warn them of any side effects.
 
57 so far, yet we were told these things take years, it's a good job we don't
use Bluemoon for instructions on how to do it.

You mean deals already negotiated, that we rolled over with bits missing here and there and extra bits where we had to sweeten the pot?

Curious, are these deals a good thing or not because I get mixed messages, like ‘A deal with Vietnam, hurrah! It protects a few hundred million‘s worth of trade!’ vs ‘No deal with Europe! Hurrah! We will prosper mightily!’

You can appreciate my slight puzzlement.
 
It's an outrage, before you now it well have the RAF scrambling to intercept illegal incursions into UK airspace and Mi5 spying on folk.

Again, you are being disingenuous. You know perfectly well what the sentiment is behind the headlines and stories and it isn’t a good one.

Al least try and by honest. You will feel better for it.
 
Again, you are being disingenuous. You know perfectly well what the sentiment is behind the headlines and stories and it isn’t a good one.

Al least try and by honest. You will feel better for it.
Indeed Bobert, but headlines do not necessarily represent the truth. I'm surprised how much notice you take of the nail tbh. If it wasn't posted on here I'd be unaware that it still existed.
 
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