Political relations between UK-EU

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Prestwich_Blue said:
"...a net benefit to the UK." Of course it is. We are a relatively wealthy country so we attract inwards migration. it if it benefits us, then it negatively impacts someone else. And that's the problem. The economic impacts are proven and demonstrable.

And as @Ban-jani correctly points out, infrastructure and services can't be scaled up overnight, like Amazon Web Services. FoM would be fine if movement was roughly equal, so nearly as many Britons went to Poland & Romania as Poles & Romanians came here.
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This is economic illiteracy, what’s more this is an argument against any immigration, indeed the argument posted by @Ban-jani that we only want the ‘best and most skilled’ is an argument for emptying a country of its most talented and skilled citizens.

What we have here is anti-immigration sentiment dressed up as economic concern for ‘other countries’. Poland actually attracts immigrants, as does Romania, you make it sound as if these places are being emptied.

The strain on our resources is nonsense, any strain is down to Govt underfunding it for a decade. Properly invested we wouldn’t have the issues.
 
BobKowalski said:
This is economic illiteracy, what’s more this is an argument against any immigration, indeed the argument posted by @Ban-jani that we only want the ‘best and most skilled’ is an argument for emptying a country of its most talented and skilled citizens.

What we have here is anti-immigration sentiment dressed up as economic concern for ‘other countries’. Poland actually attracts immigrants, as does Romania, you make it sound as if these places are being emptied.

The strain on our resources is nonsense, any strain is down to Govt underfunding it for a decade. Properly invested we wouldn’t have the issues.
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It’s not actually taking all of the best from very specific poorer countries, in Eastern Europe, like the current policy was.

It is taking people from all around the world in only areas where we are short.

Not only that, people who have a job waiting for them already.

This is incredibly specific to our needs and will mean we’re not aimlessly bleeding talent out of Romania and Bulgaria.
 
BobKowalski said:
This is economic illiteracy, what’s more this is an argument against any immigration, indeed the argument posted by @Ban-jani that we only want the ‘best and most skilled’ is an argument for emptying a country of its most talented and skilled citizens.

What we have here is anti-immigration sentiment dressed up as economic concern for ‘other countries’. Poland actually attracts immigrants, as does Romania, you make it sound as if these places are being emptied.

The strain on our resources is nonsense, any strain is down to Govt underfunding it for a decade. Properly invested we wouldn’t have the issues.
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I couldn’t tell if the earlier concern for Bulgaria was a reference to the Stewart Lee Paul Nuttall joke.
 
joe123 said:
I couldn’t tell if the earlier concern for Bulgaria was a reference to the Stewart Lee Paul Nuttall joke.
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The girl I work with, who is a very good friend, is Bulgarian. My extended family has property there and I go over there.

There is a genuine concern for these countries who are seeing their talent leave them.

For example, the girl I work with, whilst admitting she’s obviously contributed to the issue, has said she’s worried about the country over the next few years if that trend continues.

We were looking for a database administrator in Sofia and I was gobsmacked at how few there was coming up in the search. She says to me, “they’re all in London!”
 
If 15m people had suddenly decided to move here from other EU countries, what would we have done? How would we have housed them, provided medical and other social services, schools, etc.

And once again, because you don't seem to be able to read, I'm absolutely fine with migration. In fact it's necessary if we have a labour market requirement we can't meet internally, be that high or low-skilled. It may be taking people from areas of high unemployment and give them an income, tax revenues for the host country and remittances for their native country. It might provide skills to poorer countries that they don't have. Migration is a fact of life in our global economy. But unrestricted freedom of movement isn't the best way to do that.
 
Ban-jani said:
The girl I work with, who is a very good friend, is Bulgarian. My extended family has property there and I go over there.

There is a genuine concern for these countries who are seeing their talent leave them.

For example, the girl I work with, whilst admitting she’s obviously contributed to the issue, has said she’s worried about the country over the next few years if that trend continues.

We were looking for a database administrator in Sofia and I was gobsmacked at how few there was coming up in the search. She says to me, “they’re all in London!”
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I’ve also got a Bulgarian in my family and I think she’d be pretty livid if she was told she wasn’t welcome here as her trading acumen would better serve her home village.

I agree there need to be checks and balances on immigration, and I’m certainly not saying this of yourself, but the idea that the UK wants to control immigration in order to advance the economies of nations of origin is largely bollocks.
 
joe123 said:
I’ve also got a Bulgarian in my family and I think she’d be pretty livid if she was told she wasn’t welcome here as her trading acumen would better serve her home village.

I agree there need to be checks and balances on immigration, and I’m certainly not saying this of yourself, but the idea that the UK wants to control immigration in order to advance the economies of nations of origin is largely bollocks.
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Well your first paragraph is taking the point to the extreme, nobody is going to tell her she’s not welcome because her village needs her, that’s never going to happen and the UK government isn’t thinking about that in its Brexit meetings.

It is, however, a legitimate concern across the EU that needs addressing and I know that point on Stewart Lee was insinuating I don’t really care about Bulgaria and the point is that I don’t want them here.

I have personally benefited greatly because of my Bulgarian colleague, her contribution to our team leads to my commission too, I couldn’t be any more grateful for having her and she’s aware of that. I am fully behind giving people the chance to come and work here but we need to control it, as you have agreed and the EU needs to consider this if it’s going to improve.

Our new immigration system is going to improve on what we had with the EU’s, that is my only point I’ve made for the last 24 hrs.

My overall opinion on the EU is that the benefits still outweigh this particular negative and that’s why I wanted to remain. The whole discussion started because one or two posters, such as our dear Bob, are proponents of completely open borders globally, and want that for Britain moving forward.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
If 15m people had suddenly decided to move here from other EU countries, what would we have done? How would we have housed them, provided medical and other social services, schools, etc.

And once again, because you don't seem to be able to read, I'm absolutely fine with migration. In fact it's necessary if we have a labour market requirement we can't meet internally, be that high or low-skilled. It may be taking people from areas of high unemployment and give them an income, tax revenues for the host country and remittances for their native country. It might provide skills to poorer countries that they don't have. Migration is a fact of life in our global economy. But unrestricted freedom of movement isn't the best way to do that.
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They didn’t though. In the last twenty years with FoM, 15m people didn’t suddenly wake up one morning and decide to move to Brighton.

15m people aren’t suddenly deciding to move to any EU country for that matter. It’s just fantasy.
 
BobKowalski said:
They didn’t though. In the last twenty years with FoM, 15m people didn’t suddenly wake up one morning and decide to move to Brighton.

15m people aren’t suddenly deciding to move to any EU country for that matter. It’s just fantasy.
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No, but 500,000 net per year have, appreciating 40% of those are outside the EU.

It’s been a mixture of positives and negatives but it got to the stage about 10 years ago, that Blair’s immigration experiment had failed.

Even Ed Miliband had to apologise for it on national television.

Broken Vows, the book on Blair, details this and is a pretty shocking read about their hidden tactics.
 
Ban-jani said:
I think our countryside is absolutely stunning.

You realise it more when you abroad and see the countryside in other countries.

My Spanish ex mrs said that Britain is the prettiest country in the world when the sun is shining and you’re out in nature.
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Yes let’s look at flat fields with grass and cows not much different perhaps even worse than the average garden
 
Ancient Citizen said:
The immigration debate on here is totally pointless, the open border advocates are saying the same things that get rejected by the electorate time and again. Those ideas are now dead, there will be an Australian style immigration system based on skills, applied to the whole world, which is
acceptable to the vast majority.
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It’s been rejected by people who are putting up strawmen or who believe the strawmen

Open boarders where not advocated by anyone nor did we ever have open boarders
 
Ancient Citizen said:
The immigration debate on here is totally pointless, the open border advocates are saying the same things that get rejected by the electorate time and again. Those ideas are now dead, there will be an Australian style immigration system based on skills, applied to the whole world, which is
acceptable to the vast majority.
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According to latest poll 73% agree with ending free movement with only 17% wanting it to continue.

inews.co.uk

Leave and Remain voters both favour end to free movement, but want to keep EU rules on firms

Voters were more likely to agree with one another after discussing issues, according to research by Sir John Curtice
inews.co.uk inews.co.uk
 
Ban-jani said:
What about the point that the EU, as a whole, skews it’s immigration system in favour of those earning above £20,000, coming into the EU from elsewhere?
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The EU does not set non EU immigration policy or earning requirements for its members states
 
WRicko said:
As a strong remainer rejoiner / support of Braintry

I am both extra optimistic about about what has been said about our new current deal deals short comings and extra depressed by it

It’s clear that it’s a rubbish deal which will be changed and improved over time in fact much sooner than I expected which will take us back towards the EU on many issues notably Education, security, foreign policy, data protection, fighting crime and services and probably climate change and other issues. This will reduce the need to rejoin but will result in increased loss of sovereignty and increased demand to rejoin so as to have more say more democracy and more sovereignty This is why leaving was even worse than I expected. Basically have the chief advocate of the deal confirm it was a deal with big gaps and there would be years more of what we have just had added insult and injury to the existing loss even if it was what I expected all along it’s made tho whole thing seem instantly even more pointless than I thought
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Hmmmm

That is a proper confused explanation if what has happened

Are you on the pop?
 
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WRicko said:
Yes let’s look at flat fields with grass and cows not much different perhaps even worse than the average garden
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Must be a miserable existence to wander around the British countryside and not see beauty.

I can imagine you at the Great Barrier Reef - “it’s just a bunch of fish and seaweed”.
 
ganganvince said:
According to latest poll 73% agree with ending free movement with only 17% wanting it to continue.

inews.co.uk

Leave and Remain voters both favour end to free movement, but want to keep EU rules on firms

Voters were more likely to agree with one another after discussing issues, according to research by Sir John Curtice
inews.co.uk inews.co.uk
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Nicely framed. We are not ending free movement from the EU. We are ending our right to free movement. The only Europeans losing the right to free movement are the British. Everyone else still has it.

At least get the question right.
 
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