Political relations between UK-EU

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Bob did, on this thread. He wants global freedom of movement and that’s where the discussion began, you entered half way through.

The government might balls it up, but the system they’ve put into place is a better one for the country in my opinion, they might not implement it and put it into practice effectively, but the plan is better.


I have no idea what this means


The beauty of the points system is we can fix it by making sure more doctors and nurses can reach 70pts. I am sure they are already in the “low jobs category” that grants 20, then if they’re qualified it’s another 20, speak English 10 and if the NHS offers jobs to these people that’s 20 again.

It’s incredibly hard to police when people can just enter without applying to come in. Getting those who have been here 6 months without a job is nigh on impossible when EU citizens can just enter on a whim.

They definitely didn’t have the capacity to do that but is true they didn’t want to admit it, because it would prove they didn’t even try.
Indeed:

"The beauty of the points system is we can fix it by making sure more doctors and nurses can reach 70pts. I am sure they are already in the “low jobs category” that grants 20, then if they’re qualified it’s another 20, speak English 10 and if the NHS offers jobs to these people that’s 20 again."

The UK will have total control over how it sets the scoring and can then flex to meet its priorities. It is absolutely commonsense and after a few years of being implemented the benefits will be obvious and irrefutable.

RE:

Seems unlikely given that new trade deals will require a lot of immigration perhaps not too much economically but too much in the minds of the people who voted leave
I have no idea what this means

I read that as being just another desperate attempt to associate Leave voters to being anti-immigration
 
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Well it's not an immigration system. That's kinda the point.
But it is.

Freedom of movement for Europeans, visa based system, based on occupation and whether you can get sponsorship and your earnings for those outside of Europe.

That’s been the policy for years.
 
I’ve read this several times and can only presume you’d had a drink last night?

What does Chinese culture, that’s existed for thousands of years, have to do with the Chinese Communist Party? And what does me disliking their government have to do with them being content with their culture?

A) This doesn’t surprise me, I’ve had the impression for a while several people on here don’t really like their country much. Self-hatred in a societal sense is very prevalent with some on the left at the moment

B) To be tolerant of other people’s cultures you don’t need to change your own, especially not to match theirs, which is a sort of weird masochism

C) Thankfully your view continues to be hammered in the polls every election and is a small minority view
Excellent and measured response
 
Well my alternative would have been the EU, but apparently some people didn't like that.
But that has been rejected and we need to implement a system that will work for the UK - from 2021 onwards

As simply going back in a Tardis is not an option - do you have another alternative?
 
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Indeed:

"The beauty of the points system is we can fix it by making sure more doctors and nurses can reach 70pts. I am sure they are already in the “low jobs category” that grants 20, then if they’re qualified it’s another 20, speak English 10 and if the NHS offers jobs to these people that’s 20 again."

The UK will have total control over how it sets the scoring and can then flex to meet its priorities. It is absolutely commonsense and after a few years of being implemented the benefits will be obvious and irrefutable.

RE:


I have no idea what this means

I read that as being just another desperate attempt to associated Leave voters to being anti-immigration
It’s not only the criteria where we are short and need people we can change, it’s the whole thing, if we want to.

At the moment, STEM is a big cause for concern with talent, I know from personal experience.

So they’ve added extras points for anyone qualified to PHD level and people with enough experience in STEM - on top of having these jobs being in the 20 pts section for occupations we are short of people for.

This will see a specific type of skill set coming into the UK, with a significant number of people.

Once we are at healthy levels of this skill, it could be thousands of people, we can change it to something else.

That is the beauty of the whole system.
 
Well that depends on whether we can achieve integration still in trade that’s as seamless as possible. Hopefully technology can bring it.

There’s risks either way, ultimately we’re part of a global economy, anything happening within the EU, or any large trading block, will have an impact on us.
I assume that the 'well that depends' part of your post relates to my belief that the future is rosy for the UK due to your concerns over frictions in conducting trade.

On that basis I agree - but again I am very optimistic. Now that the deed is done and there is little point in any party seeking to use the potential of friction as a negotiating tool - I think that we will indeed quickly see technology enabled reengineering of processes to ease flows - already there is seemingly not the materialisation of the 'issues predicted'

But and a separate point - for me the future of the UK is absolutely guaranteed to be (NETT) Rosy simply by removing the risk of being embroiled in the political, economic and fiscal integration that the EU simply must now accelerate
 
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It’s not only the criteria where we are short and need people we can change, it’s the whole thing, if we want to.

At the moment, STEM is a big cause for concern with talent, I know from personal experience.

So they’ve added extras points for anyone qualified to PHD level and people with enough experience in STEM - on top of having these jobs being in the 20 pts section for occupations we are short of people for.

This will see a specific type of skill set coming into the UK, with a significant number of people.

Once we are at healthy levels of this skill, it could be thousands of people, we can change it to something else.

That is the beauty of the whole system.
It is actually an excellent system and a no-brainer when considered with any semblance of objectivity

As you say, it offers also continuous opportunity to prioritise and flex to meet the changing needs of the UK
 
Indeed, but at least some of us can look forwards

And, whilst it is early days, we seem to be able to do so without worrying about many thousands of lorries being parked up in Kent or planes being able to land etc. - something that we surely should all be pleased about
Are you going to give us a lorry queue update every day or just weekends and bank holidays?
 
Bit like the Barnett Formulae then?


You don't mention the fact that people also send funds back from richer to poorer countries, move back to their original country suitably enriched. Many of the young people get their education and return including doctors nurses etc. The poorer countries also seem to have a favourable view of the EU despite all the issues you outline.


Colin, I should have started by saying how pleased I am to see you on this thread. Your forensic analysis will be a welcome addition.

I personally feel looking forward to the new relationship on this thread is best rather than re-analysing the EU (as you can imagine, we had quite a bit of that over the last few years. And I'm sure you will recognise that many that inhabit this thread would see things a little differently). So much to go at on the new topic of our future relationship rather than bayoneting the wounded on the old stuff don't you think?
The point I've been trying to make is that things change and people & institutions adapt over time. Change is never easy though. I went on a consultancy skills many years ago when working for an international consultancy and we worked in groups of 6 or 7. You worked with the same people during the day & in the evening from the start of the course on Sunday, and got a great group dynamic going. I can still picture & remember the names of people in my group, 20 years on, despite the fact we only knew each other for 6 days and never worked together again.

On Thursday morning the course tutors came in and said they were changing the groups and they moved a couple of people out of each group into another. There was uproar, with people actually in tears, and the whole group dynamic broke down. At one of the breaks, they reinstated the old groups and said it was a practical lesson about how change impacts people and that we had to think about these impacts. Even though we knew it was coming, the actual terms of our departure made it a precipitate event, with just days to spare.

Some things won't be as good for sure but other things may be better. No one knows yet though, so no one can say for sure that it's a pending complete disaster or the best thing since sliced bread. As I said, it's like El Alamein; the end of the beginning. Where the relationship goes from here will depend on the desire of the government and the goodwill of the EU. I even reckon the EU might secretly be glad to see the back of us, as I suspect that, being the main counterpart to France & Germany, we'd be the main blocker of closer integration. Now we're finally out, after 5 years of political chaos, perhaps we can start to look forward.
 
Are you going to give us a lorry queue update every day or just weekends and bank holidays?
It seems strange to me that you want me to extend my update - but, Ok, although I cannot promise to be daily

But, as I do not want it to be a bore, I will limit the number posts to the number that we have previously received from (previously known as) Remainers telling us just how bad it is going to be.

Also - to demonstrate objectivity and show that I am able to 'man-up' if wrong - when we have daily queues of 7,000 (I seem to remember that was the f/c) lorries every day for a month - I will accept that you and others were right
 
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I read Britons have been trouble with Spanish immigration authorities doing what all immigration authorities around the world do when given the chance, i.e. make life difficult.

What the Spanish should do is study the Windrush example and learn from the UK how to deport people legally entitled to live in their country...
 
The point I've been trying to make is that things change and people & institutions adapt over time. Change is never easy though. I went on a consultancy skills many years ago when working for an international consultancy and we worked in groups of 6 or 7. You worked with the same people during the day & in the evening from the start of the course on Sunday, and got a great group dynamic going. I can still picture & remember the names of people in my group, 20 years on, despite the fact we only knew each other for 6 days and never worked together again.

On Thursday morning the course tutors came in and said they were changing the groups and they moved a couple of people out of each group into another. There was uproar, with people actually in tears, and the whole group dynamic broke down. At one of the breaks, they reinstated the old groups and said it was a practical lesson about how change impacts people and that we had to think about these impacts. Even though we knew it was coming, the actual terms of our departure made it a precipitate event, with just days to spare.

Some things won't be as good for sure but other things may be better. No one knows yet though, so no one can say for sure that it's a pending complete disaster or the best thing since sliced bread. As I said, it's like El Alamein; the end of the beginning. Where the relationship goes from here will depend on the desire of the government and the goodwill of the EU. I even reckon the EU might secretly be glad to see the back of us, as I suspect that, being the main counterpart to France & Germany, we'd be the main blocker of closer integration. Now we're finally out, after 5 years of political chaos, perhaps we can start to look forward.
Really nice to see some objectivity introduced on the thread

I hold very similar views to the ones you express - and the reason that I expressed my views that it would be good if the thread could be forwards looking is because I am hopeful that, as people adapt to the reality that change has happened - they can start to move on with their focus being on the potential for the future rather than being obsessed with the previous 'status quo'

I think that this will happen quite readily - as I mentioned in an earlier post.

Already there are discussions commencing about the role of the UK's Financial Services sector in the EU and some individual countries are making decisions to allow the City to continue using previous arrangements until new ones are agreed

And now that the focus is not on negotiations, but making profit/GDP, I would expect to see a number of IT/Technology enabled changes to processes that addresses/reduces/removes frictions that impacts trade.

For me - the most important test of the scope of the success that Brexit will bring will be the decisions this government brings forward with regards to investment in infrastructure and other programmes.

I am far from a supporter of the Conservatives, or indeed this PM - but I do think that they have an instinct for survival - and for them to survive 2024 they need to be able to point at 'hard differences' that they have made in 'levelling up' - and ideally how those improvements were only possible due to Brexit.

I think that some on here might be surprised about the policies, priorities and decisions that will come forwards in the next 12-18 months
 
It seems strange to me that you want me to extend my update - but, Ok, although I cannot promise to be daily

But, as I do not want it to be a bore, I will limit the number posts to the number that we have previously received from (previously know as) Remainers telling us just how bad it is going to be.

Also - to demonstrate objectivity and show that I am able to 'man-up' - when we have daily queues of 7,000 (I seem to remember that was the f/c) lorries every day for a month - I will accept that you and others were right

Such hubris, we already know what closing the Dover/Calais can do with the pre-Xmas shutdown and that it is a supply ‘windpipe’ for the UK.

I told you many times when you were in your ‘walk away with no deal’ phase that a deal would bring us goodwill on the other side of the border when it came to customs and customs checks and one of the arguments for a deal is that politically Johnson would not want queues of lorries and pissed off truck drivers.

The problem with debating Brexiteers is their goldfish memory and ability to champion the exact opposite of what they wanted a month ago. Oh, and the Govt isn’t building giant lorry parks or imposing a Kent border for hauliers for the lols.
 
Spain putting out guidance on the documents you need to enter Spain.

Ah, the joys of immigration paperwork and rules.

 
So you think everthing in the agreement will work out perfectly, there are no unforseen consequnces of just copying old agreements across, that having different agreements in different parts of the UK won’t cause problems, that changing governments won’t want different things.
That this agreement is perfect, even without sorting out the service side or, lets not forget recisiting fishing in 5 years?
No, nothing is perfect, what I'm saying is that anyone thinking we are going to be discussing a deal that has been finalised, and that time is to be spent trying our best to get back what we've fought tooth and nail to leave behind, may have a long wait. Of course, like any other arrangement we will adapt to the future, but people need to come to terms that that future is not within the EU.
 
I’ve read this several times and can only presume you’d had a drink last night?

What does Chinese culture, that’s existed for thousands of years, have to do with the Chinese Communist Party? And what does me disliking their government have to do with them being content with their culture?

A) This doesn’t surprise me, I’ve had the impression for a while several people on here don’t really like their country much. Self-hatred in a societal sense is very prevalent with some on the left at the moment

B) To be tolerant of other people’s cultures you don’t need to change your own, especially not to match theirs, which is a sort of weird masochism

C) Thankfully your view continues to be hammered in the polls every election and is a small minority view
Sorry if it was a bit cryptic, but if you think Chinese culture hasn't changed in a thousand years, I can see the problem. And I am assuming that the Cultural Revolution actually affected Chinese culture.

And as to what I think of my own country, well right now, I don't like it much. I was listening last week to a quote from when we joined the EEC in 1973, someone saying that the other nations already in the EEC had not lost their own distinctive national identity (he might have said culture). My problem is that from feeling Britain was a great place to be, and I was lucky to have been born here, four years of Brexitism have left me thinking the distinctive national identity of England is not what I thought it was. I hate to use the word, but some aspects of it I do hate. It's a green and pleasant land with some deeply dark and unpleasant attitudes (beyond just differences of opinion on what's best for the country). I am hopeful that the growing generations will not become infected with it.

Since Theresa May said it, I have rather embraced the "citizen of nowhere" badge - that sort of labelling is part of what I hate, but it means my being British is now just an accident of birth, and if I could (like in NI) have chosen to be an EU citizen rather than British, then an EU citizen I would remain. I'm almost sorry I became so tied to City - without that, perhaps I might have looked to live abroad - and while holidays abroad are not exactly a good test, there have been many places where I have thought "I could happily live here".
 
A points based system that allows the UK to prioritise the skills and numbers needed should be welcomed by all IMO

It will lead to reduced unemployment in the UK

It will lead to improved public and private sector services

It is not inherently discriminatory - as was the system that the UK was obliged to adopt

Re your final point though we may disagree - hatred and bitterness can cause extreme levels of delusion
Exactly - hatred and bitterness toward the EU has caused extreme levels of delusion.
 
It seems strange to me that you want me to extend my update - but, Ok, although I cannot promise to be daily

But, as I do not want it to be a bore, I will limit the number posts to the number that we have previously received from (previously known as) Remainers telling us just how bad it is going to be.

Also - to demonstrate objectivity and show that I am able to 'man-up' if wrong - when we have daily queues of 7,000 (I seem to remember that was the f/c) lorries every day for a month - I will accept that you and others were right
I don’t want you to extend your update. Nothing would be less interesting. My post was simply to point out that you have already given us two lorry queue updates including one just hours into New Year’s Day in which you implied warnings of delays at the border due to additional checks and paperwork weren’t a problem. It’s a bit sad that you felt the need to do this just to prove a point on a football forum when everyone with a brain knows that we are in a holiday period and importers have been stockpiling due to the risk of No Deal. It’s going to be quiet for some time until we reach a new equilibrium at which point it might actually be meaningful to look at queues and lorry park occupancy.
 
Such hubris, we already know what closing the Dover/Calais can do with the pre-Xmas shutdown and that it is a supply ‘windpipe’ for the UK.

I told you many times when you were in your ‘walk away with no deal’ phase that a deal would bring us goodwill on the other side of the border when it came to customs and customs checks and one of the arguments for a deal is that politically Johnson would not want queues of lorries and pissed off truck drivers.

The problem with debating Brexiteers is their goldfish memory and ability to champion the exact opposite of what they wanted a month ago. Oh, and the Govt isn’t building giant lorry parks or imposing a Kent border for hauliers for the lols.
I would guess that I am not the only poster that chuckles to see you comment about hubris in others

But - you make a valid point.....

I have offered to admit that I am wrong should we see the 7,000 lorry queues that you fellas predicted for a month. I need to have an exception should this be caused by the wilful actions of 3rd parties. I certainly expect to see the French fishermen cause some 'friction'

I do like reference to my mantra:

"We will not see movement from the EU unless and until they are faced with the prospect of a viable walk-away option – and the political will to use it”

As here we are - living every day based on the veracity of that opinion.

But I would ask you and others to 'let it go' I would rather look to the future and not have to keep pointing out that I was right. I will try not to bring it up again unless in response to others.

As for:

"The problem with debating Brexiteers is their goldfish memory...."

Not surprised, although perhaps disappointed, that you have decided to carry on in the same divisive manner of the past.
 

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