Political relations between UK-EU

[Invisible Man's Bandage]

As a Leaver I'm more than happy with our exit from the EU & I actually think UK/EU relations will be either no worse or perhaps better than when we were members. The UK, including many 'soft' Remainers, has never bought into the federal thrust of ever closer Union and really only wanted the economic part of the EU experience. There is a political and recent history perspective for many EU nations, particularly Germany & France, that just doesn't exist in the UK.

Now we are out the EU won't be harbouring any illusions about us rejoining and so pragmatism will be the order of the day. The UK is a major economy with which the EU enjoys a very large trade surplus and it is still a major player in guaranteeing European security. There will be competition of course but there is competition between EU member states currently.

 

[Vic]

Really nice to see some objectivity introduced on the thread

I hold very similar views to the ones you express - and the reason that I expressed my views that it would be good if the thread could be forwards looking is because I am hopeful that, as people adapt to the reality that change has happened - they can start to move on with their focus being on the potential for the future rather than being obsessed with the previous 'status quo'

I think that this will happen quite readily - as I mentioned in an earlier post.

Already there are discussions commencing about the role of the UK's Financial Services sector in the EU and some individual countries are making decisions to allow the City to continue using previous arrangements until new ones are agreed

And now that the focus is not on negotiations, but making profit/GDP, I would expect to see a number of IT/Technology enabled changes to processes that addresses/reduces/removes frictions that impacts trade.

For me - the most important test of the scope of the success that Brexit will bring will be the decisions this government brings forward with regards to investment in infrastructure and other programmes.

I am far from a supporter of the Conservatives, or indeed this PM - but I do think that they have an instinct for survival - and for them to survive 2024 they need to be able to point at 'hard differences' that they have made in 'levelling up' - and ideally how those improvements were only possible due to Brexit.

I think that some on here might be surprised about the policies, priorities and decisions that will come forwards in the next 12-18 months

GDP is bound to go up with £2billion being spent on customs officers. (The CETB people who gave you the dubious figure that UK GDP would be 23% higher than France by 2035 has also pointed out that the UK now includes drug-dealing and prostitution in our GDP.)

 

[Vic]

So if you claim to be resident in Spain and are returning there, you have to be able to prove it. First step back to Fascism & a military government under the new Franco presumably.

Why are they claiming to be resident, rather than just going on holiday? I presume it's because they want to stay longer than 90 days.

 

[BobKowalski]

Since Theresa May said it, I have rather embraced the "citizen of nowhere" badge - that sort of labelling is part of what I hate, but it means my being British is now just an accident of birth, and if I could (like in NI) have chosen to be an EU citizen rather than British, then an EU citizen I would remain. I'm almost sorry I became so tied to City - without that, perhaps I might have looked to live abroad - and while holidays abroad are not exactly a good test, there have been many places where I have thought "I could happily live here".

I‘m the same. That phrase, her speech, did it for me, it weakened a natural emotional attachment to country. Theresa May more than anyone increased my antipathy to Brexit and, to be honest, some people who support it, the lies they tell are difficult to stomach.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

So if you claim to be resident in Spain and are returning there, you have to be able to prove it. First step back to Fascism & a military government under the new Franco presumably.

I try and ignore utter nonsense put up about Spain, the holiday situation, the residency regulations etc; You can travel, (covid excepted) you can buy property, and you can apply for residency. The residency criteria, meant you
have to provide various checks and proofs, if these are OK,
so are you. They are, or indeed recently were, experiencing a property boom,
these are marketed all over Europe, where I go thousands are being sold, to
many nationalities, I know Americans who have just retired there.

 

[WRicko]

Ahh, I am absolutely delighted to see you’ve gone down the racism and bigotry route so soon into our discussion. Didn’t think it would be long until someone pulled that card out.

Did you miss the part where the UK’s new immigration policy, which I support, no longer makes it easier for people coming from predominantly white Christian countries in Europe, than those coming from elsewhere, and instead is totally blind to creed and colour, as long as you’re qualified in areas we need?

I have given you figures and the figures of 100,000’s of net people adding to our population each year is, as I’ve repeated, unsustainable.


The Labour Party apologised for their policy under Blair, which was to radically change the country via migration and was done so as government policy. Straw and Blair banned the word immigration from cabinet meetings and made it possible for people to claim refugee status, that were not refugees.

It was a systematic and encouraged policy to change society and they never uttered a word to the British people on whether they wanted it.

You need to read the book “Broken Vows” by Tom Bower. It was a best seller and described as more comprehensive than the Chilcot Inquiry.

Straw has apologised following the release of the book.

Regarding the government, it won’t take you long to find posts on this forum of me hammering the Tories for something or calling them utterly incompetent.

I am not defending their record but I am saying that if and when, after Covid, they finally do spend on infrastructure and housing, it would be ridiculous to add to the pressure by allowing free movement.

Culture wise it’s simple. The exact same reason I felt deep sadness when I ended up in Benidorm on a stage do, seeing what we’ve done there, I wouldn’t want the same to happen here. One local there, in Benidorm, said to me that whilst locals are glad there’s money coming in through tourism, it’s sad how their town has effectively turned into “Blackpool in the sun”, he genuinely said that yes. This is my point on the economics not always equaling quality of life, he’d have preferred it to stay Spanish.

Immigrants should be integrated and welcomed and whilst they should retain many aspects of their own culture, allowing whole towns and areas to house them at a short, sharp rate, creates tension and fails to integrate them.

I will reiterate before I get more false accusations by those incapable of arguing in another way, I am pro immigration. Just not freedom of movement.

Let’s be honest the governments points based system might in theory be better and it might in theory be more balanced or less discriminatory than freedom of movement but it’s going to be rubbish the government is in generally incompetent and bigoted

Also governments are incapable of working out how many people will apply to live in a country what points they will get and how many jobs will need filling by people from outside also often the people with the least amount of points end up being the most hardworking or creative and entrepreneurial

You keep asserting that a certain amount of immigration is unsustainable and that freedom of movement resulted in more than that amount. Yet we clearly have lots of space as had been pointed out multiple times and deliberately ignored by you and others and we have lots of vacancies in positions that are hard to fill with native born people this will only be exacerbated by the pandemic as it pushes public sector workers out due to stress and ill health and we demand better public sector services because we finally recognize there importance Is it over 100k in vacancies in both the health and social care.

Give me specific examples of people who have not integrated or what would constitute not integrating odds based on previous debates the people won’t be European and many of the examples will be flawed or bigoted ( Nigel and his doesn’t like listening to foreign languages even tho he had a German wife and kids)

Your criticism of freedom of movement is based on how we implemented it I think had we implement the restrictions we where allowed you wouldn’t have complained it’s why I doubt despite the general bigotry coming out of the government that they will do much to reduce immigration especially when they are desperate to get trade deal which will include increased number of visas for China India Australia Canada New Zealand and America

Generally the tension comes from the people not liking the foreigners not there lack of integration or the numbers it’s also tends to be more about people From outside Europe and people in working class norther towns The places that dislike immigration the most are the places with the least amount of immigration

Immigration / freedom of movement was reducing before we left and was further reduced because we chose to leave fall in exchange worries of being unwelcome we didn’t actually need to leave

Why is the emphasis on freedom of movement always about people coming here what about us going to Europe and missing that

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Why are they claiming to be resident, rather than just going on holiday? I presume it's because they want to stay longer than 90 days.

It's because they live there, like a few people I know including a couple of City fans. So they obviously have to be able to stay longer than 90 days in 180.

It's the same as places like the USA, where you can only go for 3 months at a time unless you've got a green card or an appropriate visa. My son went over on a student visa but managed to lose his passport with the visa in it early in his stay.

To get a replacement visa, he would have needed to come back to the UK and reapply to the US Embassy. This was a bit of a Catch-22 as, if they'd refused for some reason, he couldn't go back to finish his course. So he couldn't travel home for over 4 years, until he got his green card.

 

[BobKowalski]

...Why is the emphasis on freedom of movement always about people coming here what about us going to Europe and missing that

Because they think they still have freedom of movement. Freedom of movement applies to others. They are unable to grasp that other European nationals still have freedom of movement. The only European nationals who no longer have Freedom of movement is the British.

It is British, or English exceptionalism at its finest, leading to an inability to comprehend that the only people they took freedom of movement away from is themselves.

 

[Saddleworth2]

The point I've been trying to make is that things change and people & institutions adapt over time. Change is never easy though. I went on a consultancy skills many years ago when working for an international consultancy and we worked in groups of 6 or 7. You worked with the same people during the day & in the evening from the start of the course on Sunday, and got a great group dynamic going. I can still picture & remember the names of people in my group, 20 years on, despite the fact we only knew each other for 6 days and never worked together again.

On Thursday morning the course tutors came in and said they were changing the groups and they moved a couple of people out of each group into another. There was uproar, with people actually in tears, and the whole group dynamic broke down. At one of the breaks, they reinstated the old groups and said it was a practical lesson about how change impacts people and that we had to think about these impacts. Even though we knew it was coming, the actual terms of our departure made it a precipitate event, with just days to spare.

Some things won't be as good for sure but other things may be better. No one knows yet though, so no one can say for sure that it's a pending complete disaster or the best thing since sliced bread. As I said, it's like El Alamein; the end of the beginning. Where the relationship goes from here will depend on the desire of the government and the goodwill of the EU. I even reckon the EU might secretly be glad to see the back of us, as I suspect that, being the main counterpart to France & Germany, we'd be the main blocker of closer integration. Now we're finally out, after 5 years of political chaos, perhaps we can start to look forward.

Having delivered successful change programmes for half of my career and successfully received them operationally for the other half, I am pretty familiar with the impact it can have on individual, group, or organisation. I think you will find that most on here are past the stage you describe on your consultancy course.

if you take a typical change curve, I think most on here are way past depression, stage 4, many are past acceptance Stage 5 and are actively looking at what the new arrangements and relationship will mean. Stage 6.

My point was, let’s not revisit the past as that will certainly send Some of us us back to stage 2 and stage 4. No matter what your beliefs about the EU are, best we all concentrate on stage 6.

 

[hilts]

I‘m the same. That phrase, her speech, did it for me, it weakened a natural emotional attachment to country. Theresa May more than anyone increased my antipathy to Brexit and, to be honest, some people who support it, the lies they tell are difficult to stomach.

Time is a great healer although I would get that timepiece sorted out.

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[Ban-jani]

Let’s be honest the governments points based system might in theory be better and it might in theory be more balanced or less discriminatory than freedom of movement but it’s going to be rubbish the government is in generally incompetent and bigoted

Also governments are incapable of working out how many people will apply to live in a country what points they will get and how many jobs will need filling by people from outside also often the people with the least amount of points end up being the most hardworking or creative and entrepreneurial

You keep asserting that a certain amount of immigration is unsustainable and that freedom of movement resulted in more than that amount. Yet we clearly have lots of space as had been pointed out multiple times and deliberately ignored by you and others and we have lots of vacancies in positions that are hard to fill with native born people this will only be exacerbated by the pandemic as it pushes public sector workers out due to stress and ill health and we demand better public sector services because we finally recognize there importance Is it over 100k in vacancies in both the health and social care.

Give me specific examples of people who have not integrated or what would constitute not integrating odds based on previous debates the people won’t be European and many of the examples will be flawed or bigoted ( Nigel and his doesn’t like listening to foreign languages even tho he had a German wife and kids)

Your criticism of freedom of movement is based on how we implemented it I think had we implement the restrictions we where allowed you wouldn’t have complained it’s why I doubt despite the general bigotry coming out of the government that they will do much to reduce immigration especially when they are desperate to get trade deal which will include increased number of visas for China India Australia Canada New Zealand and America

Generally the tension comes from the people not liking the foreigners not there lack of integration or the numbers it’s also tends to be more about people From outside Europe and people in working class norther towns The places that dislike immigration the most are the places with the least amount of immigration

Immigration / freedom of movement was reducing before we left and was further reduced because we chose to leave fall in exchange worries of being unwelcome we didn’t actually need to leave

Why is the emphasis on freedom of movement always about people coming here what about us going to Europe and missing that

If the government was indeed bigoted then why did they implement an immigration policy that is totally blind to race, nationality, religion, age, sex, whatever...

Surely if, Indian descended, 2nd generation immigrant, Home Secretary Priti Patel, hated certain types of people she would have implemented a system that doesn’t allow certain backgrounds to come?

Your point about them being bigoted doesn’t make any sense. She’s just right wing and is doing what Conservatives have always wanted, a control on numbers coming in - which they won a huge majority promising

This policy will likely make the percentage of people coming less white European.

We have been over the space thing twice now. I am not repeating myself a third time.

On the tensions part...in the words of Jeremy Corbyn “if your community has changed due to mass immigration and you have concerns about it, it doesn’t make you a racist”.

You can scoff at people in working class towns who have experienced this change and laugh at them, but their view is just as valid as yours and their votes outnumbered those you agree with you.

It’s a combination of people entering the EU and gaining a passport and then moving to Britain and people coming directly, because of incompetent governments.

But nevertheless, the tensions we’ve seen arise when it’s a very high number of people in a concentrated area. Which makes integration very difficult.

I couldn’t care less whether someone is coming from Bangladesh or Belgium, so long as they have the skills we need, are law abiding and want to be apart of our society... just so long as the numbers are 10,000’s over 100,000’s.

 

[Ban-jani]

Because they think they still have freedom of movement. Freedom of movement applies to others. They are unable to grasp that other European nationals still have freedom of movement. The only European nationals who no longer have Freedom of movement is the British.

It is British, or English exceptionalism at its finest, leading to an inability to comprehend that the only people they took freedom of movement away from is themselves.

Considering he was replying to me is that what you really think my position is?

I know full well I don’t have freedom of movement anymore and I think Europe would be better for it.

 

[WRicko]

Bob did, on this thread. He wants global freedom of movement and that’s where the discussion began, you entered half way through.

The government might balls it up, but the system they’ve put into place is a better one for the country in my opinion, they might not implement it and put it into practice effectively, but the plan is better.


I have no idea what this means


The beauty of the points system is we can fix it by making sure more doctors and nurses can reach 70pts. I am sure they are already in the “low jobs category” that grants 20, then if they’re qualified it’s another 20, speak English 10 and if the NHS offers jobs to these people that’s 20 again.

It’s incredibly hard to police when people can just enter without applying to come in. Getting those who have been here 6 months without a job is nigh on impossible when EU citizens can just enter on a whim.

They definitely didn’t have the capacity to do that but is true they didn’t want to admit it, because it would prove they didn’t even try.

I don’t think he actually specifically said that but whatever perhaps quote him

Trade deals often require relaxation of visa requirements most notably India and China We stopped the EU getting a deal with India because of fears over too many Indians coming here due to history they where not likely to go to Italy for example. Boris is going in January to get a mini trade deal and it will allow more visas

This will be good economically and it might not be too many for the country economically or socially or from an infrastructure point of view but it won’t go down well with the people who voted Brexit especially a certain section when they find out they have replaced white Christian Europeans with People with other skin colors and religions

I don’t think the government policy is better its hard to split the policy the rhetoric and the implementation they want a points system because of the rhetoric they will set the points system wrong for political ideological rhetorical reason they do not follow evidence as we can see in the pandemic and they are generally bigoted but let’s see

Points based systems don’t work because you can never be sure how many will apply who will apply what jobs you will need. Hence why May didn’t want it bet to try and fill the jobs

The Europeans don’t find it hard to police free movement but then they require registration at local council and ID cards for all

 

[smudgedj]

47% of products imported into UK will now be tariff-free, compared to only 27% under EU’s Common External Tariff (CET).
Average tariffs reduced from 7.2% under CET to 5.7% under UK’s new Global Tariff regime (UKGT)

https://www.stevens-bolton.com/site...anges-to-imports-in-2021-the-uk-global-tariff

 

[bluethrunthru]

I try and ignore utter nonsense put up about Spain, the holiday situation, the residency regulations etc; You can travel, (covid excepted) you can buy property, and you can apply for residency. The residency criteria, meant you
have to provide various checks and proofs, if these are OK,
so are you. They are, or indeed recently were, experiencing a property boom,
these are marketed all over Europe, where I go thousands are being sold, to
many nationalities, I know Americans who have just retired there.

much the same applies to people coming here - you meet certain criteria and you can live here subject to certain rules. Sad that some categorise that as us flexing our sovereignty muscle but when others do it then its fascism - I can see we will all get along swimmingly.

 

[Ban-jani]

I don’t think he actually specifically said that but whatever perhaps quote him

Trade deals often require relaxation of visa requirements most notably India and China We stopped the EU getting a deal with India because of fears over too many Indians coming here due to history they where not likely to go to Italy for example. Boris is going in January to get a mini trade deal and it will allow more visas

This will be good economically and it might not be too many for the country economically or socially or from an infrastructure point of view but it won’t go down well with the people who voted Brexit especially a certain section when they find out they have replaced white Christian Europeans with People with other skin colors and religions

I don’t think the government policy is better its hard to split the policy the rhetoric and the implementation they want a points system because of the rhetoric they will set the points system wrong for political ideological rhetorical reason they do not follow evidence as we can see in the pandemic and they are generally bigoted but let’s see

Points based systems don’t work because you can never be sure how many will apply who will apply what jobs you will need. Hence why May didn’t want it bet to try and fill the jobs

The Europeans don’t find it hard to police free movement but then they require registration at local council and ID cards for all

I’ve spoken to Bob about it many many times, including this week. It is his opinion and he won’t mind me saying it. He is of course welcome to it but I am welcome to disagree.

The visas point isn’t one I agree with, it isn’t necessarily the case, the free trade agreements we’ve already set up don’t have this at all and even if it was, we can alter the immigration policy if that’s the mandate the government had and it’s what the country wanted to do. You see, we now set it ourselves.

The party with the biggest problem with bigotry is Her Majesty’s opposition, we’ve seen that with the antisemitism report, and the evidence for the Tories being so is much more limited and this policy certainly says the opposite.

They have the most diverse Cabinet in our history, so outside of one or two backbenchers, there doesn’t seem to be a major problem.

We do know, because of how many visa applications we’ve always received from outside of the EU, they can measure it.

Points based systems seem to work elsewhere, why not here?

 

[west didsblue]

47% of products imported into UK will now be tariff-free, compared to only 27% under EU’s Common External Tariff (CET).
Average tariffs reduced from 7.2% under CET to 5.7% under UK’s new Global Tariff regime (UKGT)

https://www.stevens-bolton.com/site...anges-to-imports-in-2021-the-uk-global-tariff

Slightly misleading stats. It would appear that the stats exclude the 45% of all imports that come from the EU. In other words we are unilaterally lowering tariffs to much of the rest of the world without necessarily getting anything in return. Not sure that’s quite the “win” for the U.K. that you might imagine if it allows low cost economies to undercut domestic production.

 

[BobKowalski]

47% of products imported into UK will now be tariff-free, compared to only 27% under EU’s Common External Tariff (CET).
Average tariffs reduced from 7.2% under CET to 5.7% under UK’s new Global Tariff regime (UKGT)

https://www.stevens-bolton.com/site...anges-to-imports-in-2021-the-uk-global-tariff

Finally, hard evidence and data, not empty phrases.

Looked through, couldn’t find how this relates to overall trade, ie what percentage in £ of UK imports this applies to, nor can I find what we secured for this reduction in return. Any idea?

Which then brings me to a persistent irritation. This reduction in average tariffs from 7.2% to 5.7% is objectively good news and I assume you believe it to be so, yet you also championed a no deal with the EU which would have seen tariffs being levied. This seems somewhat ‘inconsistent’.

I also assume you are now in favour of the UK keeping in lockstep with the EU on rules and regulations to ensure we do not trigger tariffs on trade with the EU, which would mitigate any reduction in tariffs from elsewhere.

 

[hilts]

I don’t think he actually specifically said that but whatever perhaps quote him

Trade deals often require relaxation of visa requirements most notably India and China We stopped the EU getting a deal with India because of fears over too many Indians coming here due to history they where not likely to go to Italy for example. Boris is going in January to get a mini trade deal and it will allow more visas

This will be good economically and it might not be too many for the country economically or socially or from an infrastructure point of view but it won’t go down well with the people who voted Brexit especially a certain section when they find out they have replaced white Christian Europeans with People with other skin colors and religions

I don’t think the government policy is better its hard to split the policy the rhetoric and the implementation they want a points system because of the rhetoric they will set the points system wrong for political ideological rhetorical reason they do not follow evidence as we can see in the pandemic and they are generally bigoted but let’s see

Points based systems don’t work because you can never be sure how many will apply who will apply what jobs you will need. Hence why May didn’t want it bet to try and fill the jobs

The Europeans don’t find it hard to police free movement but then they require registration at local council and ID cards for all

Whether the new points system brought in by this govt is good average or poor is not relevant to the general concept. Plenty of people think this govt is pretty shit so I wouldn’t be overly positive tbh. However it’s our government that is responsible for implementing it or discarding it at a future point. We could even vote the pillocks out. Fancy that:-)

Moving away from the EU is hopefully the first step, getting rid of the Tories, the Lords and our useless fptp system is the next step. This will be a lot harder to do unfortunately and unless those to the left of the Tories get their act together I won’t live long enough to see it.

 

[BobKowalski]

I’ve spoken to Bob about it many many times, including this week. It is his opinion and he won’t mind me saying it. He is of course welcome to it but I am welcome to disagree.

The visas point isn’t one I agree with, it isn’t necessarily the case, the free trade agreements we’ve already set up don’t have this at all and even if it was, we can alter the immigration policy if that’s the mandate the government had and it’s what the country wanted to do. You see, we now set it ourselves.

The party with the biggest problem with bigotry is Her Majesty’s opposition, we’ve seen that with the antisemitism report, and the evidence for the Tories being so is much more limited and this policy certainly says the opposite.

They have the most diverse Cabinet in our history, so outside of one or two backbenchers, there doesn’t seem to be a major problem.

We do know, because of how many visa applications we’ve always received from outside of the EU, they can measure it.

Points based systems seem to work elsewhere, why not here?

Bob doesn’t think implementing global freedom of movement overnight will happen or be practicable.

I outlined that you start with neigbouring countries, small Unions (like our own), trade blocs like the EU. It’s a process that will take time, the elimination of barriers to people and trade is the goal

That said, Covid may see a shift to regionalism from globalism. Key industries and supply chains housed within regions and within a defined legal jurisdiction, which may in turn accelerate federalism in trade blocs or a quasi federal structure.