Keir Starmer

chesterbells said:
Who have Labour got who is a more electable leader, who middle ground of mainstream voters in Britain would be happy to see in No.10?
From what I’ve heard and seen from him so far, I rate him, and would vote in a way which led to him being PM.
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I’m in a unique position of preferring Labour’s leader but preferring Tory MPs generally speaking.

Labour have some real cranks among their ranks and every time I hear Starmer saying something highly intelligent and reasonable, you then get Dawn Butler spouting some absolute nonsense.

Then you get terrible leadership by the government and then some really sensible MP’s that aren’t on the front bench.

If only Starmer could lead a new party with some Tory MPs and some of the more sensible Labour ones leaving to join him.

At the moment I can’t bring myself to vote for anyone I don’t think.
 
Ban-jani said:
I’m in a unique position of preferring Labour’s leader but preferring Tory MPs generally speaking.

Labour have some real cranks among their ranks and every time I hear Starmer saying something highly intelligent and reasonable, you then get Dawn Butler spouting some absolute nonsense.

Then you get terrible leadership by the government and then some really sensible MP’s that aren’t on the front bench.

If only Starmer could lead a new party with some Tory MPs and some of the more sensible Labour ones leaving to join him.

At the moment I can’t bring myself to vote for anyone I don’t think.
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Yeah, the middle ground where most people lie, those who don’t populate online political discussions etc, is quite mixed up at the moment, but then in these unusual times the last thing on the minds of a lot of people is party politics.
Btw, didn’t we used to have three significant political parties? I’m sure we did at one time...
 
chesterbells said:
Yeah, the middle ground where most people lie, those who don’t populate online political discussions etc, is quite mixed up at the moment, but then in these unusual times the last thing on the minds of a lot of people is party politics.
Btw, didn’t we used to have three significant political parties? I’m sure we did at one time...
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Starmer is the only respectable leader in major UK politics imo, just a shame he’s leading a party that’s at odds with my views.
 
The middle ground is a mythical place that exists in the minds of those who don't take account the effects of the Overton Window. As the Overton window is constantly shifting so is the mythical middle ground, if the Overton window moves rightwards as it has done probably since Thatcher the middle ground also moves rightwards because the middle ground is not constant. If I am correct in my assumption the mythical middle ground now lies somewhere around where One Nation Conservatism used to reside if you use the linear explanation of political standpoints. This explains why Labour looked to many as extreme at the last election because the mythical middle ground was to the right of the median linear point. Farage helped moved the Overton window rightwards and the Tory party followed, which explains why a number of the people on the left wing of the Tory party felt more at home in the Lib Dems as they had been dragged rightwards into traditional Tory ground, the Labour party moved rightwards under Blair which left a space that was empty on the left that was filled by Corbyn. Corbyn to some extent succeeded in dragging the Overton window leftwards again but that allows the Tory party to move leftwards back towards its one nation roots.

The idea that most people inhabit the middle ground is a misnomer, because the middle ground is constantly shifting and if people still inhabit the middle ground that means there politics are also shifting in the current direction of the Overton window. which is why the Overton window is such a clever tool at explaining political positioning.

In my view Starmer is in danger of wasting the years spent moving the Overton window leftwards by moving the Labour party rightwards, by him moving the Overton window rightwards it then allows the Tories to move rightwards themselves and Tory policies/ideas such as levelling up can be quietly dropped in favour of more extreme Conservative policies which of course suits the Libertarian fruitcake wing of the Tory party as there ideals become normalised and the fight to move the Overton window back leftwards becomes even harder as the centre ground is firmly in Tory territory.
 
Ban-jani said:
I’m in a unique position of preferring Labour’s leader but preferring Tory MPs generally speaking.

Labour have some real cranks among their ranks and every time I hear Starmer saying something highly intelligent and reasonable, you then get Dawn Butler spouting some absolute nonsense.

Then you get terrible leadership by the government and then some really sensible MP’s that aren’t on the front bench.

If only Starmer could lead a new party with some Tory MPs and some of the more sensible Labour ones leaving to join him.

At the moment I can’t bring myself to vote for anyone I don’t think.
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Not thought about this angle but you are right. I think starmer is excellent and intelligent but some of his troops are clowns. A bit like Pep being in charge of port vale in the premier league.
 
wattle said:
Not thought about this angle but you are right. I think starmer is excellent and intelligent but some of his troops are clowns. A bit like Pep being in charge of port vale in the premier league.
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2024 is going to be very tough if the personnel doesn’t change much.
 
Rascal said:
The middle ground is a mythical place that exists in the minds of those who don't take account the effects of the Overton Window. As the Overton window is constantly shifting so is the mythical middle ground, if the Overton window moves rightwards as it has done probably since Thatcher the middle ground also moves rightwards because the middle ground is not constant. If I am correct in my assumption the mythical middle ground now lies somewhere around where One Nation Conservatism used to reside if you use the linear explanation of political standpoints. This explains why Labour looked to many as extreme at the last election because the mythical middle ground was to the right of the median linear point. Farage helped moved the Overton window rightwards and the Tory party followed, which explains why a number of the people on the left wing of the Tory party felt more at home in the Lib Dems as they had been dragged rightwards into traditional Tory ground, the Labour party moved rightwards under Blair which left a space that was empty on the left that was filled by Corbyn. Corbyn to some extent succeeded in dragging the Overton window leftwards again but that allows the Tory party to move leftwards back towards its one nation roots.

The idea that most people inhabit the middle ground is a misnomer, because the middle ground is constantly shifting and if people still inhabit the middle ground that means there politics are also shifting in the current direction of the Overton window. which is why the Overton window is such a clever tool at explaining political positioning.

In my view Starmer is in danger of wasting the years spent moving the Overton window leftwards by moving the Labour party rightwards, by him moving the Overton window rightwards it then allows the Tories to move rightwards themselves and Tory policies/ideas such as levelling up can be quietly dropped in favour of more extreme Conservative policies which of course suits the Libertarian fruitcake wing of the Tory party as there ideals become normalised and the fight to move the Overton window back leftwards becomes even harder as the centre ground is firmly in Tory territory.
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Well that’s the first time I’ve ever heard of the Overton window - it’s good to learn something new - but and there’s certainly some food for thought there, and I accept that what constitutes the middle ground can change over time, and that thatcher for example shifted it. I still think the middle ground isn’t mythical though; I believe political views hold a normal distribution, so though the middle ground might move over time, it does still exist, and it’s still where most people are.
 
chesterbells said:
Well that’s the first time I’ve ever heard of the Overton window - it’s good to learn something new - but and there’s certainly some food for thought there, and I accept that what constitutes the middle ground can change over time, and that thatcher for example shifted it. I still think the middle ground isn’t mythical though; I believe political views hold a normal distribution, so though the middle ground might move over time, it does still exist, and it’s still where most people are.
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I meant mythical in terms of it actually being in the centre as a point where all ideologies converge and you have equilibrium of thought that is acceptable to all sides.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
I think politically we have pretty similar outlooks, but there’s something about him that really get on my tits.
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I know what you mean with this. The more I look and listen to him, as much as I agree with a lot with what he’s saying, I find myself disliking him more.

Still much less so than the alternatives though.
 
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The complete absence of charisma means that he is a bad choice as leader - but perhaps the best of a poor bunch to choose from - and therefore, imho, unlikely to win an election, unless he can find some extremely charismatic sidekicks. Sadly, as a left leaning voter, I have to say that, clever though he may be, I don't see him ever getting the big job.
 
the blue panther said:
The complete absence of charisma means that he is a bad choice as leader - but perhaps the best of a poor bunch to choose from - and therefore, imho, unlikely to win an election, unless he can find some extremely charismatic sidekicks. Sadly, as a left leaning voter, I have to say that, clever though he may be, I don't see him ever getting the big job.
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I couldn’t disagree more with this, with respect.

I think he’s absolutely perfect in the current climate and if the climate continues until 2024, then he’s a great chance.

Why? He’s professional, articulate, straight forward, doesn’t bumble, isn’t eccentric.. and the public may have had enough of that by 2024.

Someone who isn’t constantly lying to try and curry favour with the voting base is exactly what middle England is crying out for now.

Comparing Boris to Trump is lazy and for the politically inept, however, they are both a significant move from Blair, Cameron, Obama... and the UK is unfortunately fed the US political universe too.

I see several years of the opposite of eccentricity and lying being wanted and craved by the electorate.

The problem for me is I don’t agree with Starmer’s politics and I cannot stand his party.
 
He’d have been a very good pm through the pandemic and for those that are less bothered about the rhetoric or personality of politics (which there aren’t enough of), he’s actually holding Johnson to account very well.

On the Boris v Trump, I agree there’s big differences between the two (thankfully for us). They share some core similarities that are worrying though, and we shouldn’t disregard some of the worse things Boris has done just because they aren’t as bad as what Trump has done.
 
What's bugging me about him is his relentless campaigning for more support for x, y and z. He is just pandering to the popular vote with no thoughts about how the country is going to pay for everything.

Today's he is shaming the government for putting up council taxes to pay for care. Who exactly does he think is going to pay for all of this? It's the easiest job in the world to do the square root of fuck all and stand on the side criticising everything and having only one solution, a national lockdown.

I'm yet to see any Labour policies about where the money will come from. He's a charlatan.
 
manchester blue said:
I'm yet to see any Labour policies about where the money will come from. He's a charlatan.
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The same magic money tree that always has enough to build bombs, give tax cuts and tax breaks, funds Tory donors wild making schemes, gives the Queen treasure, builds infrastructure for London.

That magic money tree. There is a forest of magic money trees in the BoE vault. Enough magic money trees to buy up all the available labour and more, enough to feed every child and build everyone a home, because the magic money tree forest is vast and limitless.

Of course the Tories don't want you to know about the magic money tree forest, because they want that forest all for themselves and their friends. Capitalists do not like to share you see, they want it all for themselves. Champagne and Yachts don't buy themselves you know.
 
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