Political relations between UK-EU

[stonerblue]

hahahaha, good one.

It's that ''fair and sensible'' that it's had numerous changes, backtracks, tweeks, fiddles and amendments since inception.

 

[Ban-jani]

It's that ''fair and sensible'' that it's had numerous changes, backtracks, tweeks, fiddles and amendments since inception.

Does changing mean it’s not fair nor sensible? The whole point of it is that changes can be made, that’s why it’s good.

I’m genuinely intrigued to see what you don’t like about it?

 

[stonerblue]

Does changing mean it’s not fair nor sensible? The whole point of it is that changes can be made, that’s why it’s good.

I’m genuinely intrigued to see what you don’t like about it?

Pretty much all of it.

 

[Ban-jani]

Pretty much all of it.

So you don’t like points based systems?

Do you not like the fact it’s the least discriminatory policy we’ve ever had to immigration?

 

[BobKowalski]

If it became evident in NI that here was a desire, it could then be put to referendum.....i believe there would then be a separate one in the Republic too

I can understand and partly agree with @Ban-jani in that there wont be a referendum soon....i think 10 years is wishful thinking, but there will be one...but at the moment the unionists in Stormont have enough to prevent it happening. Im not 100% certain a straight yes/no vote for reunification would produce a yes answer anyway.

And thats where the process needs to be thought out by those in favour. A yes/no scenario will never solve the problems.....its more about integrating and amalgamating....and imo, Brexit can help facilitate it.

Some Unionists will be scared that its the road to a United Ireland....but if we hold on to and develop the supposed benefits that NI now has we could potentially keep everyone happy.....a wee bit more of a United Ireland whilst still remaining within the UK

Evolution over time, a natural progression to an all Ireland supply chain economy where the differences between North and South become indistinguishable and the differences between NI and GB become more pronounced.

A longer time span to achieve unification, but one where the chances of success are higher than a binary referendum over the next few years.

Unionists in the North will seek to break the NI protocols as Brexit pushes the North and South together. For Unionists, and by that I mean hardcore Unionists, a land border to re-emphasis the divide is the only play left. I like to think it’s doomed to failure, but it can’t be ruled out entirely.

Mad to think the DUP supported Brexit, even madder that they still do in principle.

 

[stonerblue]

So you don’t like points based systems?

Do you not like the fact it’s the least discriminatory policy we’ve ever had to immigration?

Definitely not. We'll let you in if you have a well paid job but you can fuck right off if you're poor and trying to better, or just save, your life.

 

[BobKowalski]

So you don’t like points based systems?

Do you not like the fact it’s the least discriminatory policy we’ve ever had to immigration?

No, it’s geared to Govt ideology and based on earnings, not on what the economy needs or is best for sustained growth.

I am opposed to barriers to trade and opposed to barriers to people because people are linked to trade. Our economy is Services orientated and a service economy is a people economy, it’s raw product if you like is people.

In economic terms our immigration policy is a century out of date. Just as a Govt trying to manage trade barriers in a continent based economy is beyond dumb, trying to manage people is equally dumb. All you will have is sectors claiming exemptions, getting them, and making the system an unholy mess over time. Govts will also grant and withdraw exemptions based on the latest Mail headline rather than allowing the market to respond to need.

It is an obsession with control that drives our economic and immigration policy. That so far it has led to less control is the Tory and Brexit gift that keeps on giving.

 

[Ban-jani]

Definitely not. We'll let you in if you have a well paid job but you can fuck right off if you're poor and trying to better, or just save, your life.

You have to have a salary paying £20,000 waiting to you, it doesn’t mean you have to be paid that now.

The idea is to get qualified people in, who will contribute a certain amount of taxes.

For the record, this a standard global policy for many, we (and many countries around the world, including in the EU now) already had the minimum salary policy for people coming from outside the EU.

The new system, is the first time in our history, that we haven’t favoured particular countries over others, even prior to the EU we favoured former colonies.

Now a nurse from Somalia has just as much chance as someone from France.

 

[Ban-jani]

No, it’s geared to Govt ideology and based on earnings, not on what the economy needs or is best for sustained growth.

I am opposed to barriers to trade and opposed to barriers to people because people are linked to trade. Our economy is Services orientated and a service economy is a people economy, it’s raw product if you like is people.

In economic terms our immigration policy is a century out of date. Just as a Govt trying to manage trade barriers in a continent based economy is beyond dumb, trying to manage people is equally dumb. All you will have is sectors claiming exemptions, getting them, and making the system an unholy mess over time. Govts will also grant and withdraw exemptions based on the latest Mail headline rather than allowing the market to respond to need.

It is an obsession with control that drives our economic and immigration policy. That so far it has led to less control is the Tory and Brexit gift that keeps on giving.

Every country on the planet controls immigration Bob, for a long time we’ve had a huge amount of people coming that didn’t have the skills we need for the economy, primarily in STEM.

I understand you don’t appreciate the nation state and want no barriers at all but people in communities do want their communities to stay the same and there’s nothing wrong with that.

Controlling the numbers coming isn’t dumb, allowing 500,000 net in per year is dumb and even the Labour Party acknowledge they fucked up.

You’re saying it’s going to be a mess without even giving it a try, points based systems have and do work elsewhere around the world.

 

[stonerblue]

You have to have a salary paying £20,000 waiting to you, it doesn’t mean you have to be paid that now.

The idea is to get qualified people in, who will contribute a certain amount of taxes.

For the record, this a standard global policy for many, we (and many countries around the world, including in the EU now) already had the minimum salary policy for people coming from outside the EU.

The new system, is the first time in our history, that we haven’t favoured particular countries over others, even prior to the EU we favoured former colonies.

Now a nurse from Somalia has just as much chance as someone from France.

The Somali nurse has exactly the same chance as she/he had before. the nurse from France has less.

 

[Ban-jani]

The Somali nurse has exactly the same chance as she/he had before. the nurse from France has less.

Slightly more chance actually, given the visa system previously given out. She wouldn’t have had much chance getting a tier one visa previously.

Regarding the French nurse, the point is to reduce numbers but make them more specific, so yes of course EU migrants have less chance.

 

[BobKowalski]

You have to have a salary paying £20,000 waiting to you, it doesn’t mean you have to be paid that now.

The idea is to get qualified people in, who will contribute a certain amount of taxes.

For the record, this a standard global policy for many, we (and many countries around the world, including in the EU now) already had the minimum salary policy for people coming from outside the EU.

The new system, is the first time in our history, that we haven’t favoured particular countries over others, even prior to the EU we favoured former colonies.

Now a nurse from Somalia has just as much chance as someone from France.

Well, I doubt it given France is next door and Somalia isn’t. The practical barriers to a Somalian nurse are likely to be higher than to a French nurse. I am quite happy though to make an immigration policy that gives help to a Somalian nurse to overcome any practical barriers.

In economic terms though our policy is stupid. All countries tend to have a more generous immigration policy with its neighbours to facilitate work, travel and living, because like trade, immigration is often local ie just under half of our immigration came from Europe and the rest from everywhere else.

With the former colonies you had economic and cultural ties which tended to push immigration, just as say France had with Algeria.

 

[Ban-jani]

Well, I doubt it given France is next door and Somalia isn’t. The practical barriers to a Somalian nurse are likely to be higher than to a French nurse. I am quite happy though to make an immigration policy that gives help to a Somalian nurse to overcome any practical barriers.

In economic terms though our policy is stupid. All countries tend to have a more generous immigration policy with its neighbours to facilitate work, travel and living, because like trade, immigration is often local ie just under half of our immigration came from Europe and the rest from everywhere else.

With the former colonies you had economic and cultural ties which tended to push immigration, just as say France had with Algeria.

What are these practical barriers?

 

[BobKowalski]

Slightly more chance actually, given the visa system previously given out. She wouldn’t have had much chance getting a tier one visa previously.

Regarding the French nurse, the point is to reduce numbers but make them more specific, so yes of course EU migrants have less chance.

Which is dumb. Especially as the converse is true. We have less chance, which bizarrely no one seems to notice.

Immigration like trade is local. Putting barriers up. Dumb.

 

[stonerblue]

Slightly more chance actually, given the visa system previously given out. She wouldn’t have had much chance getting a tier one visa previously.

Regarding the French nurse, the point is to reduce numbers but make them more specific, so yes of course EU migrants have less chance.

She/he wouldn't get a tier 1 visa now.

Do these 'more specific' roles include, porters, cleaners, auxiliary staff, drivers, trainees etc?

What are these practical barriers?

Having a spare 2 grand.

 

[Vic]

Which is dumb. Especially as the converse is true. We have less chance, which bizarrely no one seems to notice.

Immigration like trade is local. Putting barriers up. Dumb.

It won't stop the exodus of UK medics to Australia.

 

[Vic]

Does changing mean it’s not fair nor sensible? The whole point of it is that changes can be made, that’s why it’s good.

I’m genuinely intrigued to see what you don’t like about it?

It's a disincentive to EU nurses coming here, most of whom will already speak English. We have chosen to make it less attractive for medical staff we need to come and work here.

 

[west didsblue]

It won't stop the exodus of UK medics to Australia.

Yep, the new restrictions we have put on ourselves won't make a huge amount of difference for highly skilled workers where there is a global demand for those skills. For everyone else it will be a bit shit though.

 

[Ban-jani]

It's a disincentive to EU nurses coming here, most of whom will already speak English. We have chosen to make it less attractive for medical staff we need to come and work here.

Not for those outside the EU and they will have to speak English to get a place here anyway.

 

[Vic]

I see there's already an increase in the seasonal workers allowed - but not enough say our farmers and food producers. We can't increase domestic food production with no-one to pick it, and imports will be dearer. Good work,chaps.