Political relations between UK-EU

[metalblue]

You don’t buy what?

Get the UK out of your head, it’s just AstraZeneca sites of which they were always going to use four to fulfil both the U.K. and mainland Europe’s vaccines.

The ones based in Europe aren’t ready yet. The EU said make up for some of the shortfall from the U.K. site then, given they’re supposed to be coming from there too. AZ said they can’t as those have already been prioritised for the U.K. The Eu then say that’s not a valid reason to delay production from there to us, the contract states any other agreement you have won’t impede on ours.

That’s entirely presumed that they were ever intended to come from the UK; especially in the early days. Is there a specific schedule that shows doses and facility that produced them? No? so it is not contracted. UK was simply a referenced site and if there was an intention to supply from UK at outset then the argument that there were conflicting contracts might well hold water.

 

[metalblue]

There clearly was though, the U.K. agreement!

It’s not going to go to court.

Not unless you are saying AZ absolutely knew there was a real risk that they would not have production facilities in the EU up and running. If you can prove that you’ll get a medal from the EU

 

[jaseirai]

Why are so many on here happy to jump on the EUs side with everything, it all smells a bit Vichy to me.

Especially when you subcontract to the French.

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[Kazzydeyna]

There is a delicious sort of irony in this, well there would be if it wasn’t such a serious matter of course.

I have been told for 4 years that if I voted for Brexit/Brexit actually happened that I would die as medicines would not be able to get through quickly enough should I get sick. I do not remember any sympathy for that scenario. I remember a lot of crowing about thick leavers in ‘crappy northern towns’ (actually that little epithet was from the very inclusive Guardian newspaper, the newspaper of choice for so many on the right/harder right side of the Brexit debate) causing their own downfall. I do not recall any calls for the EU to speed up the supply of medicines to ignorant northern racist Brexit voters.

The EU have only approved the vaccine today.

I hate this govt but on vaccine procurement and rollout they have shown the EU to be what many of us knew it was for decades. Incompetent, Unable to organise a party in a brewery, and given to calls for “war” when things don’t go their way. Is this what they meant when they promised me a Third World War if I voted Brexit?

 

[meltonblue]

That’s entirely presumed that they were ever intended to come from the UK; especially in the early days. Is there a specific schedule that shows doses and facility that produced them? No? so it is not contracted. UK was simply a referenced site and if there was an intention to supply from UK at outset then the argument that there were conflicting contracts might well hold water.

No it isn’t, it’s just irrelevant - the fact there isn’t a schedule on delivery from each site justifies the EUs case, not AZs. From the EUs perspective, they don’t care where it comes from. The contract states that AZ will use either the U.K. sites or sites in mainland Europe to fulfil the order, that’s it.

If the reason the U.K. site can’t fulfil the order is because of a commitment to someone else, then that’s in breach of the contract. If it had a shortfall of production for other reasons then it wouldn’t.

 

[Vic]

That’s entirely presumed that they were ever intended to come from the UK; especially in the early days. Is there a specific schedule that shows doses and facility that produced them? No? so it is not contracted. UK was simply a referenced site and if there was an intention to supply from UK at outset then the argument that there were conflicting contracts might well hold water.

There's no distinction in the contract between sites in the UK or in the EU - except to say that (for this purpose only) UK sites are deemed to be in the EU. The main point of 5.4 is what happens if AZ want to manufacture vaccines for Europe in sites outside the EU.

 

[metalblue]

No it isn’t, it’s just irrelevant - the fact there isn’t a schedule on delivery from each site justifies the EUs case, not AZs. From the EUs perspective, they don’t care where it comes from. The contract states that AZ will use either the U.K. sites or sites in mainland Europe to fulfil the order, that’s it.

If the reason the U.K. site can’t fulfil the order is because of a commitment to someone else, then that’s in breach of the contract. If it had a shortfall of production for other reasons then it wouldn’t.

I really appreciate you taking the time to exchange posts mate but neither of these points have been proven. The EU may well have intended exactly what you’re saying but they don’t have a contract to support that IMHO. You see it differently and I respect that.

You and I are interpreting the same document differently. How much fun could lawyers have!!

Maybe we could get paid £500 an hour for this!!

 

[Vic]

Whats the evidence to back that one up mate?

The UK government's announcement last May that they had got priority to get vaccines first (though it's a bit vague on how many of the 30m the UK expected to get).

Funding and manufacturing boost for UK vaccine programme

UK’s top researchers rapidly working to find a coronavirus vaccine will benefit from £84 million of new government funding.

www.gov.uk

NB
Pascal Soriot, Chief Executive Officer, AstraZeneca, said:
AstraZeneca is at the forefront of the response to COVID-19, and we are proud to be working with Oxford University to help make this vaccine available as quickly as possible. I would like to thank HM Government for its commitment to the vaccine and welcome its leadership and generosity for its help in expanding access beyond the UK. Our company is working hard to establish parallel supply agreements with other nations and multilateral organisations to ensure fair and equitable access around the world.

 

[metalblue]

The UK government's announcement last May that they had got priority to get vaccines first (though it's a bit vague on how many of the 30m the UK expected to get).

Funding and manufacturing boost for UK vaccine programme

UK’s top researchers rapidly working to find a coronavirus vaccine will benefit from £84 million of new government funding.

www.gov.uk

NB Pascal Soriot, Chief Executive Officer, AstraZeneca, said:
AstraZeneca is at the forefront of the response to COVID-19, and we are proud to be working with Oxford University to help make this vaccine available as quickly as possible. I would like to thank HM Government for its commitment to the vaccine and welcome its leadership and generosity for its help in expanding access beyond the UK. Our company is working hard to establish parallel supply agreements with other nations and multilateral organisations to ensure fair and equitable access around the world.

Well if that was in the public domain last May and the EU signed their contract with AZ in August then surely they don’t have a leg to stand on. Due diligence and all that

 

[Saddleworth2]

The UK government's announcement last May that they had got priority to get vaccines first (though it's a bit vague on how many of the 30m the UK expected to get).

Funding and manufacturing boost for UK vaccine programme

UK’s top researchers rapidly working to find a coronavirus vaccine will benefit from £84 million of new government funding.

www.gov.uk

NB Pascal Soriot, Chief Executive Officer, AstraZeneca, said:
AstraZeneca is at the forefront of the response to COVID-19, and we are proud to be working with Oxford University to help make this vaccine available as quickly as possible. I would like to thank HM Government for its commitment to the vaccine and welcome its leadership and generosity for its help in expanding access beyond the UK. Our company is working hard to establish parallel supply agreements with other nations and multilateral organisations to ensure fair and equitable access around the world.

Thanks. I do remember that now. So its the 30m that are prioritised for the UK because of the early investment and decision making. Its hard to see how the EU can lay claim to any vaccine manufactured anywhere that is included in that 30m consignment then.

 

[mcfc1632]

The Covid political thread would make more sense.

Bollocks - this is the key issue that is going to affect relations between the EU and the UK at the moment

I can understand you being uncomfortable and wanting the issue shunted elsewhere

 

[Vic]

Why are so many on here happy to jump on the EUs side with everything, it all smells a bit Vichy to me.

I think the people who oppose Brexit are surprised that the UK Govt seems to have got something right (assuming faster approval of and roll-out of vaccines is a good thing, i.e. making us all part of a trial). But some have been resisting the "EU threat" narrative, as the EU (justifiably it seems) is asking for its vaccines - having paid toward the research and paid upfront for ten times the number of doses the UK ordered. It's embarrassing for the EU, but it's been frightening to see the Brexit mob really not understanding stuff today, just relishing the EU's discomfitting.

 

[meltonblue]

I really appreciate you taking the time to exchange posts mate but neither of these points have been proven. The EU may well have intended exactly what you’re saying but they don’t have a contract to support that IMHO. You see it differently and I respect that.

You and I are interpreting the same document differently. How much fun could lawyers have!!

Maybe we could get paid £500 an hour for this!!

The only way it can’t be is if there’s bits in the redactions, but given they are AZ redactions, I highly doubt it. You’ve got to remember the EU were pushing to publish it, if those sections were even remotely ambiguous in their minds, that would be idiotically stupid. I know they’re capable of it, but that’s pushing the boat a bit!

Agree on the lawyer bit!

 

[metalblue]

The only way it can’t be is if there’s bits in the redactions, but given they are AZ redactions, I highly doubt it. You’ve got to remember the EU were pushing to publish it, if those sections were even remotely ambiguous in their minds, that would be idiotically stupid. I know they’re capable of it, but that’s pushing the boat a bit!

Agree on the lawyer bit!

I absolutely agree with you, the EU will believe they are in the right. A bit like I do when arguing with Mrs MB ;)

 

[hgblue]

German newspaper Bild being quite complimentary about Brexit Boris and sycophant in chief Katya Adler being highly critical of the EU. Seems that the gaslighting by the EU isn’t working. Maybe they should cut the twattishness and come to an agreement so we can help them out of the hole they’re in? Nobody wants to see EU citizens suffer due to their incompetence.

 

[journolud]

There is a delicious sort of irony in this, well there would be if it wasn’t such a serious matter of course.

I have been told for 4 years that if I voted for Brexit/Brexit actually happened that I would die as medicines would not be able to get through quickly enough should I get sick. I do not remember any sympathy for that scenario.

Now that’s hyperbole

 

[BobKowalski]

Temporary ban for two months on vaccines leaving the bloc without prior approval, list of countries exempted, UK not on it.

 

[grunge]

No it isn’t, it’s just irrelevant - the fact there isn’t a schedule on delivery from each site justifies the EUs case, not AZs. From the EUs perspective, they don’t care where it comes from. The contract states that AZ will use either the U.K. sites or sites in mainland Europe to fulfil the order, that’s it.

If the reason the U.K. site can’t fulfil the order is because of a commitment to someone else, then that’s in breach of the contract. If it had a shortfall of production for other reasons then it wouldn’t.

Chatting to some mates who are lawyers. the issues here isn't that the contract states that the supply can come form the UK, it can, AZ has said as much in there interview the other day. that is a non point.

The issue is that AZ cannot redirect a supply that has already been contracted for. Currently the UK plant is making enough to supply the UK contract only, there is no excess supply yet. the second that plant has fulfilled the UK order then the contract is completed and the supply can get diverted to the EU.

the argument then comes down to Can the EU contract overrule the UK contract, clearly it cannot.

 

[carlosthejackal]

According to a lawyer in the relevant field on the radio, this comes down to the fact the British Government gambled and got production facilities up and running while the EU messed about , if the UK government had not gambled then we’d be in the same position as the EU , so the lawyer suggested they had no claim over the supply in the UK by the fact that this stock would not have existed but for the actions of the UK government. He suggested the question in a courtroom towards the EU is why they did not get production facilities up and running and the fact they knew about the orders the UK government had placed but still delayed.

 

[Tanzeylee]

I think the people who oppose Brexit are surprised that the UK Govt seems to have got something right (assuming faster approval of and roll-out of vaccines is a good thing, i.e. making us all part of a trial). But some have been resisting the "EU threat" narrative, as the EU (justifiably it seems) is asking for its vaccines - having paid toward the research and paid upfront for ten times the number of doses the UK ordered. It's embarrassing for the EU, but it's been frightening to see the Brexit mob really not understanding stuff today, just relishing the EU's discomfitting.

Point proven right there