Political relations between UK-EU

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That’s a no then. Have it your way as you really can’t quite bring yourself to be critical of the EU can you? It weakens anything else you have to say on the subject and a complete waste of time trying to engage with you. I’m not sure if it’s a blind love of the EU or blind hatred of the tories/UK that drives you and I honestly can’t be arsed finding out because it’s irrational.
It certainly is, most of it is just Tory hatred, no sack that, nobody with any sense can argue positively about the EU after what we've seen, so it simply
is blind hatred of the Conservatives.
We have another thread for that sort of stuff.
 
Going back a good few years now, but joining the EU totally screwed our fishing industry, ports rapidly fell into decline. Around that time people
were also beginning to see the effects of the Common Agricultural Policy,
and the big boost it gave to the French farming industry. This is probably
the time when anti EU sentiment began to grow, coupled with the fact that we had a totally useless PM in Heath, who took us into it, and we are where we are.

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I'm still waiting for Nissan in Sunderland to shut down.
wait until the demand for cars picks up and the just in time manufacturing is affected by delay - a lot of the guys there are on furlough or just kicking their heels - production is down as demand is down
 
That’s a no then. Have it your way as you really can’t quite bring yourself to be critical of the EU can you? It weakens anything else you have to say on the subject and a complete waste of time trying to engage with you. I’m not sure if it’s a blind love of the EU or blind hatred of the tories/Brexit that drives you and I honestly can’t be arsed finding out because it’s irrational.

Edit: Apologies put UK meant Brexit!

I enjoyed living in a country where there was freedom of movement, free trade among the bloc members, protection of rights etc etc - I see nothing that leaving will bring that will be of benefit to any but a few
 
wait until the demand for cars picks up and the just in time manufacturing is affected by delay - a lot of the guys there are on furlough or just kicking their heels - production is down as demand is down
Of course it's down, many businesses have totally shut down, and it ain't Brexit that's causing it. So when that ends what delays are you predicting, because the Nissan CEO is very upbeat about their future, and said Brexit actually improved their prospects.
Which I know must hurt, but isn't it about time you simply went with the flow,
and quit the never ending fruitless quest for bad news?
 
Of course it's down, many businesses have totally shut down, and it ain't Brexit that's causing it. So when that ends what delays are you predicting, because the Nissan CEO is very upbeat about their future, and said Brexit actually improved their prospects.
Which I know must hurt, but isn't it about time you simply went with the flow,
and quit the never ending fruitless quest for bad news?
Precisely.

Nissan? Pfft, what does Nissan know about Nissan's prospects for the future?
 
So I take it you won’t address the issue on shell fish then? At least @west didsblue had the good grace to criticise the EU on this whilst still maintaining a consistent pro-EU stance by citing friendly cooperation and cautioning against any retaliatory action by the UK.

Our waters aren't up to EU standards of cleanliness, hence having to go through the purification process in order to adhere to the rules. Not sure why this is being decried as some sort of injustice. Just because a professional idiot like Eustice 'believes' the law will change to accommodate us doesn't make it so.

Got to feel for the people who work in the industry, but we signed up for it, so yes it's fair and yes they should do it.
 
Our waters aren't up to EU standards of cleanliness, hence having to go through the purification process in order to adhere to the rules. Not sure why this is being decried as some sort of injustice. Just because a professional idiot like Eustice 'believes' the law will change to accommodate us doesn't make it so.

Got to feel for the people who work in the industry, but we signed up for it, so yes it's fair and yes they should do it.

Kudos for at least attempting to give a valid reason.

The shell fish have always been purified on mainland Europe so this isn’t a new process or something they didn’t understand at the time they said it was ok. Add to that the fact our waters aren’t up to “standard” (and even if they were - such as around Scotland - the EU are unsure they would allow it). So nothing has changed, not one thing between September 2019 when they said it was ok and February 2021 when they decide it wasn’t. Agreements built on shifting sands have a habit of failing.
 
Kudos for at least attempting to give a valid reason.

The shell fish have always been purified on mainland Europe so this isn’t a new process or something they didn’t understand at the time they said it was ok. Add to that the fact our waters aren’t up to “standard” (and even if they were - such as around Scotland - the EU are unsure they would allow it). So nothing has changed, not one thing between September 2019 when they said it was ok and February 2021 when they decide it wasn’t. Agreements built on shifting sands have a habit of failing.
Don't know what changed, did Johnson break or threaten to break any agreements during that time. Can't be arsed checking. Would bet there is a fair chance he did though. Would probably one of the agreements he hadn't read or understood the implications of.
Which to be fair could be all of them, including the Christmas eve one.
 
Link isn't loading.

Shame because it goes into in great depth. The site is loading for me.
I can see how some people might be concerned about the concept of the Sovereign Individual, but here's the rub; not everyone adores the concept of 'society' either. In fact the more I read about it the more appealing it sounds.
Which is fair enough and of course your choice.
I've already said before, many times, that I have no idea what "British" is meant to mean. I don't feel it, I don't know what is expected of me as one and most importantly I don't see how it is any different from being 'anything else' in the world.
Me neither. But the UK will cease to exist as political entity.
But back to the point in question, who gives a flying fig what the likes of Rees-Mogg and Hannan desire. They have no sway over the public.
That is the point, they don't have to for this to become reality. Because they see democracy as a hinderance to the sovereign individual.
Why Campbell has chosen to link this topic to brexit and our decision to leave the EU bloc is also baffling. I don't care why Leave.EU decided to fight for brexit (and they weren't even the official campaign). Nobody cares anymore! They no longer have power, they no longer have a platform they no longer have a cause. They aren't a 'threat' to anything except those who give them attention, ironically spreading their message for them!
It is a reason why, not a symptom of.

And people not caring anymore suits the likes of Mogg, the useful idiots have done their duty to his cause.
Also Libertarianism being linked to Fascism is like saying there are Vegan Meat Eaters. They are such diametrically opposing viewpoints. It's more along the lines of "Don't take my guns and I should be allowed to spit on people!" on one side and "stop making personal choices that don't harm anyone else illegal and stop trying to control peoples personal liberties!" on the other. People hear 'libertarian' and automatically think 'disgruntled American Republican'. There's much more to it than that and whilst I don't advocate it as a system of government, I see it more as a personal stance and position within the left/right political spectrum. I'll take a left wing socialist government or a right wing conservative govenment... so long as they don't get power obsessed and begin dictating to the public. They do what we tell them, not the other way around.

In fairness, it wasn't your comments I was originally responding to.
You are making the point that Libertarianism is RW, I wouldn't place it on what we consider the political spectrum. I would go as far as to say it is above normal political stances.

Libertarians believe that the world would be better place, if only the richest among us were allowed to do what they do best, make bucketloads of money through purely utilitarian relationships, without being constantly kept under the thumb of “Government”. The Government and by association the state is the enemy of the Libertarian.
 
Kudos for at least attempting to give a valid reason.

The shell fish have always been purified on mainland Europe so this isn’t a new process or something they didn’t understand at the time they said it was ok. Add to that the fact our waters aren’t up to “standard” (and even if they were - such as around Scotland - the EU are unsure they would allow it). So nothing has changed, not one thing between September 2019 when they said it was ok and February 2021 when they decide it wasn’t. Agreements built on shifting sands have a habit of failing.

There’d have had to have been some change surely as it’s essentially us asking for preferential treatment compared to the existing EU law for third countries?

Feels to me more like someone missed getting this as part of a formal agreement and the EU are flexing their muscles on it. It’s going to just be continuous negotiations for a long while yet I think.
 
There’d have had to have been some change surely as it’s essentially us asking for preferential treatment compared to the existing EU law for third countries?

Feels to me more like someone missed getting this as part of a formal agreement and the EU are flexing their muscles on it. It’s going to just be continuous negotiations for a long while yet I think.
It could be very simply the EU weren't that bothered and some of it's members have pointed it out. In which case the EU have no choice but to apply it's rules.
 
There’d have had to have been some change surely as it’s essentially us asking for preferential treatment compared to the existing EU law for third countries?

Feels to me more like someone missed getting this as part of a formal agreement and the EU are flexing their muscles on it. It’s going to just be continuous negotiations for a long while yet I think.

Yep. As far as I can see, the change is that the transition period is over and we're now a 3rd country.
 
Their cleverest trick however is to convince common folk that the state and the government are really their enemy - nobody gets a chance to vote every 4 or 5 years for or against Libertarians and that suits them fine as they turn the voters against the government to meet their own ends

Libertarians believe that the world would be better place, if only the richest among us were allowed to do what they do best, make bucketloads of money through purely utilitarian relationships, without being constantly kept under the thumb of “Government”. The Government and by association the state is the enemy of the Libertarian.
 
Kudos for at least attempting to give a valid reason.

The shell fish have always been purified on mainland Europe so this isn’t a new process or something they didn’t understand at the time they said it was ok. Add to that the fact our waters aren’t up to “standard” (and even if they were - such as around Scotland - the EU are unsure they would allow it). So nothing has changed, not one thing between September 2019 when they said it was ok and February 2021 when they decide it wasn’t. Agreements built on shifting sands have a habit of failing.

The purification always took place in Europe because thats where the market is. There is no provision for large scale purification here because the home market is so small it makes such an investment unviable. You could argue investment could be made and a bid to encourage local consumption is made but its a brave lender and business owner who creates a facility for a market that does not exist at present in the teeth of the twin gales of Brexit and the pandemic.
 
Yep. As far as I can see, the change is that the transition period is over and we're now a 3rd country.

Yeah that’s how I saw it too, so they’ve either got to change their current law or there to be a formal agreement in place specifically for us in order for it to continue. Eustace seems to be saying he thinks that letter from 2019 should class as the agreement.
 
@Rascal
Shame because it goes into in great depth. The site is loading for me.
I just get the 3 black circles continuously. Nothing else happens.

Which is fair enough and of course your choice.
Thank you for you rationality. :)

Me neither. But the UK will cease to exist as political entity.
Possibly, but that will happen regardless given the attitudes in Scotland. I can't be too upset over it as I see it as an inevitability.

That is the point, they don't have to for this to become reality. Because they see democracy as a hinderance to the sovereign individual.
Fuck em. :)

It is a reason why, not a symptom of.
Which I suppose would be interesting to some people but the majority of people simply don't care about the topic anymore. COVID is changing everyones attitudes and are now starting to see the value in promoting self-worth, self-protectionism and individuality. That's not to say they are uncaring of otherts, we're simply more attuned into ensuring that we ourselves are okay first and that's also okay. Not looking after yourself or taking the approach to take the time to put your own interests first is no longer seen as unhealthy or selfish, but an essential personal need.

And people not caring anymore suits the likes of Mogg, the useful idiots have done their duty to his cause.
Because we don't care doesn't mean we'll sleepwalk into allowing the likes of Rees-Mogg get what he wants, but if the collective agrees with him and wants what he wants, then that's also acceptable correct? It's the people choosing something different.

You are making the point that Libertarianism is RW, I wouldn't place it on what we consider the political spectrum. I would go as far as to say it is above normal political stances.
Nope not saying that at all, Libertarianism can be left, centrist or right. It's neither of those and all of those. Its main premise is that it believes in the liberties of the individual are more important and that Governments cannot make decisions that are in the best interests of everyone all of the time. Still believes in laws, still believes in rights, but that they are held together by a common law that are agreed by everyone. The more extreme of this is anarchism and libertarians aren't anarchist, we still believe in some form of rule of law, but those that promote liberties not restrict personal freedoms.
Libertarians believe that the world would be better place, if only the richest among us were allowed to do what they do best, make bucketloads of money through purely utilitarian relationships, without being constantly kept under the thumb of “Government”. The Government and by association the state is the enemy of the Libertarian.
Erm not at all. That is ONE view of SOME who 'call' themselves libertarian, but it is not the view of every libertarian. It's not that the Government is the 'enemy' or that it is a force of evil or good, its that it should butt out. It should only get involved if other people's rights and liberties are affected.

"Your rights end where mine begin"; I shouldn't be able to "do what I want" if it impacts or takes away civil liberties of another individual. That is where the line is drawn. To me libertarianism isn't a form of Government, its to keep them in check, If someone smokes marajuana in the comfort of their own home, without any inconsideration to anyone else, what crime has been committed against another for the Government to label it as illegal? And FWIW I hate marajuana!

Other example, If a responsible gun owner, who has passed mental health checks, pays taxes and licences to own and operate the weapon, doesn't use it on others, occassionally practices at a gun range in a moderated and controlled environment, what crime is being committed for them to be restricted from ownership?

The Government does not know what is best for everyone all of the time. We do, but once we step out of line by taking away someone elses civil liberties, by all means let the law do its thing. The arrogance however, that they can create laws because they think something is bad, is where libertarians draw the line. We're your allies in this fight, don't make us out to be enemies.
 
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There’d have had to have been some change surely as it’s essentially us asking for preferential treatment compared to the existing EU law for third countries?

Feels to me more like someone missed getting this as part of a formal agreement and the EU are flexing their muscles on it. It’s going to just be continuous negotiations for a long while yet I think.

100% these are teething issues and let’s face it the EU has never made such a wide reaching agreement with an economy the size of the UK before so I won’t criticise them for being a little out of their depth here ;)

Had the UK never asked the question about shellfish then I would have no issue but because they did, and were given assurances by the EU in September 2019, I do. A sensible/pragmatic approach here would be to say 6 months pass whilst we sort it. I would be inclined to agree that it’s a result of a quick deal that left a few I’s to dot and T’s to cross and unfortunately you end up with different border controls making different interpretations.

More widely (if not already done or in progress) would be good to have a speedy EU/UK dispute resolution group setup with authority where these issues can be raised and resolved as they appear on both sides.
 
100% these are teething issues and let’s face it the EU has never made such a wide reaching agreement with an economy the size of the UK before so I won’t criticise them for being a little out of their depth here ;)

Had the UK never asked the question about shellfish then I would have no issue but because they did, and were given assurances by the EU in September 2019, I do. A sensible/pragmatic approach here would be to say 6 months pass whilst we sort it. I would be inclined to agree that it’s a result of a quick deal that left a few I’s to dot and T’s to cross and unfortunately you end up with different border controls making different interpretations.

More widely (if not already done or in progress) would be good to have a speedy EU/UK dispute resolution group setup with authority where these issues can be raised and resolved as they appear on both sides.
The means of dispute resolution should be in the trade deal. Anyone know if it is?
 

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