Political relations between UK-EU

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west didsblue said:
Attempt to negotiate entry into the Single Market and the Customs Union so we get get rid of the sanctions we have imposed on ourselves. They probably won’t have us though.
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metalblue said:
Oh they would, they’d love to have us back make no mistake. Germany and France need all the help that can get in footing the EU bill. But the terms would be worse than before, I doubt they would try and force us to adopt the euro though.

Who knows, if brexit turns out to be a shit idea then yeah we might well look to go back.
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but to do that we would have to accept Freedom of Movement of Labour......and theres 17.4 million who would kick off about that.
 
Magicpole said:
They are full of utter shit. And have been from day one. They can pull these excuses out of their arses, the same place they got their economic argument, all they want. Everyone knows they haven't a fucking clue how a successful economy stays that way. They are brilliant at backing economic disaster strategies though. The sad thing is, I doubt any will be man or woman enough to admit they were sold a dead pup. They will no doubt say, dead or not, its a British bulldog pup, wrapped in a St George and that's good enough for us.
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Most of them are happy with the new immigration laws and that'll do for 'em. Not arsed about economics because there triple lock pensions won't be affected.
 
Vic said:
The penny has dropped.

They all know it's crap.

But they've got a niche audience who still love being lied to.
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They do, but just because the proposition was sold on a lie, doesn't make the proposition a lie.

A sizeable chunk of the British population took a look at their country and didn't like what they saw, they came to the conclusion it wasn't their country anymore and they were right.

Global Britain, multicultural Britain and all that entails was never voted on at the ballot box. You might believe Johnson sold a lie, but what really led to Brexit were the lies that were never sold, just implemented.

Brexit was a backlash against a political elite utterly disconnected from a huge swathe of the British people. It was a visceral push back, not grounded in economics and jobs, or even logic, but grounded in a sense of identity, of place, of history.

Because the left won't recognise this reality, and is structurally and ideologically unable to respond even if it did, the right has piggybacked on these concerns and defined them on their terms and to their ends.
 
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Didsbury Dave said:
This is a good, if depressing, article. Sometimes it takes an outsider to see things clearly. See if you can identify this forum's Brexit fans individually in it. They've all got their own section. Here's a starter for ten:

"But the British left was so painfully stupid that it couldn’t see it. It, too, was blinded by the fever dream of nationalism. We can build a communist utopia without those evil capitalists from the EU! You fools, the EU is history’s greatest example of what the left can achieve. It is an entire continent where people have healthcare, retirement, education, income, housing, as basic human rights. Karl Marx would be astonished and proud. But that wasn’t good enough for the arrogant, bumbling, astonishingly uneducated, inept, and clueless British left — having built history’s greatest social democratic project, period."


How Britain Became the Dumbest Society in the World | by umair haque | Mar, 2021 | Eudaimonia and Co (eand.co)
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Hilarious. That is the only word I can think of that diatribe of utter nonsense.

He does the classical thing of blaming Brexit for the failures of the UK governments since Blair.

He starts with the failures of the NHS, the NHS is not failing because of BREXIT, it is failing because of years of underinvestment thanks to austerity. As Haque is a Capitalist he will not blame Capitalists for the failure he will seek to blame another source as Capitalists can not be wrong. In that one instance he shows he does not understand BREXIT at all and BREXIT from a LEXIT viewpoint is basically a dismissal of Capitalism as the EU is a neo-liberal construct built for the good of the Oligarch class not for the good of the working class.

He then goes onto state " The middle class was expanding, growing in wealth and happiness."

This a typical American viewpoint where being middle class indicates success, he clearly does not understand the UK class system and it does not work like the US , because the class system in the UK is ingrained into society. The UK middle classes voted remain on the whole , it is the working class who rebelled against EU membership because the EU was not working for the working class, it served the interests of the capitalist class.

"cousins in whiteness" Does he have any idea what the fuck he is going on about here? He is buying into the far right narrative and attributing to the LEXIT narrative, he misses totally the class aspect, which is more important than any colour. Which is why his use of Marx is so disingenuous here.

He then states "It is an entire continent where people have healthcare, retirement, education, income, housing, as basic human rights." The way he describes this misses that the very same people are also paying for the disasters of capitalism inflicted in 2008.The people could have more, but because the EU is built around Capital, the interests of Capital come first, not the interests of the people. He must think the EU is some sort of utopia, which maybe if you measure it against the USA it is but it is also responsible for failings as well. Read any of Yanis Varoufakis works and he explains very well what happened.

Then he makes the classic mistake of thinking the left is Social Democrat, i am not a Social Democrat, i am a Democratic Socialist, i believe in nationalisation of the means of production and the state control of vital infrastructure and services, something not permitted by the EU. Social Democrats may be happy with the EU as they are happy using capitalist excess to redistribute wealth, i am in favour of creating state wealth to be shared amongst society.

The rise of Nationalism was not because of brexit but I have no doubt it was a driver of brexit, but look who who was backing the Nationalist theme. It was the Capitalist class. We have a City of London capitalist loving leader of the BREXIT Party, spewing hatred and causing division, because that suited the end, but the reason he got support was because of the failures f the UK governments and the EU. Ask a former steel worker in Redcar why he voted Brexit. It is because the EU would not allow state aid to save the steelworks, so now he is unemployed and the only jobs are low money low skilled jobs at Amazon warehouses, and Amazon typify the Capitalist class the EU love so much and was created for. The nationalists will bombard the steelworker with stereotypes of foreign people coming here and taking jobs, but it was the EU rules that cost the jobs in the first place.

He ends with the consequences, he is blaming BREXIT for the problems and not blaming the Government who have made an arse of BREXIT, in my mind it is because the Government wants as Johnson says to have its cake and eat it and it cant because it is fucking useless.

Anyway it is nice to know i am considered dumb, in fact he called a lot of people in the UK dumb.

I havent had much time to read it all and just wrote some quick thoughts. But remember I didn't vote for BREXIT, because the option I wanted was not on the table, it was only after a lot of reading and listening to people I respect (not cunts like Farage) that I came to the conclusion that brexit was the right path for the country.
 
The perfect fumble said:
They do, but just because the proposition was sold on a lie, doesn't make the proposition a lie.

A sizeable chunk of the British population took a look at their country and didn't like what they saw, they came to the conclusion it wasn't their country anymore and they were right.

Global Britain, multicultural Britain and all that entails was never voted on at the ballot box. You might believe Johnson sold a lie, but what really led to Brexit were the lies that were never sold, just implemented.

Brexit was a backlash against a political elite utterly disconnected from a huge swathe of the British people. It was a visceral push back, not grounded in economics and jobs, or even logic, but grounded in a sense of identity, of place, of history.

Because the left won't recognise this reality, and is structurally and ideologically unable to respond even if it did, the right has piggybacked on these concerns and defined them on their terms and to their ends.
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Recognise the reality? We know the reality. It doesn't mean you go along with it. What's wrong with a backlash against a backlash? Or ridiculing the idea that you get back at a political elite by supporting Liar Johnson and Fascist Farage and Greasy Gove and Rees-Mogg, that common as muck man of the people?
 
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Ifwecouldjust....... said:
The Tories plan to win the next election is voter suppression.
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They don't need suppression. In England they increased their majority to 84. It seems to people in the rest of the UK that it doesn't matter what the cunts do, England will always vote them in. Well ahead in the polls still, you coukdnt make thst up unless you factored in how England votes then it all falls into place.
 
Vic said:
Recognise the reality? We know the reality. It doesn't mean you go along with it. What's wrong with a backlash against a backlash? Or ridiculing the idea that you get back at a political elite by supporting Liar Johnson and Fascist Farage and Greasy Gove and Rees-Mogg, that common as muck man of the people?
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And how does the left do that? By appealing to what people have in common? Remind them that regardless of race or religion, the downtrodden masses are what we used to call the working class, and the left has always stood up for the working class! Right? But BLM would say that's a deliberate swerve to avoid the issue of race, and women would say that's the usual bullshit to exclude them, and asylum seekers say this, and urban versus countryside say that, and young versus old, and Scots versus the English and north versus south. And what about the Muslims?

Whoever said diversity is strength was having a laugh! All you get is a cacophony of noise.

So Johnson promised a Britain that made sense, of homogeneity, of shared cultural values, like it used to be (of course it was never like that, but that's beside the point). You might consider it a delusion, a blatant lie, and you may be right, but is Johnson's lie worse than the long list of lies the political class never talked about in public? Just implemented, sometimes in error, but more often quite deliberately, quietly, over many decades.

What's the left going to tell people yearning for this lost Britain? You know, to bring them around? I'll tell you what they'll do, they'll call them racist and wait for them to die.

Meanwhile a never ending succession of Tory fuckwits will rule now and forever.
 
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The perfect fumble said:
And how does the left do that? By appealing to what people have in common? That regardless of their race or religion, the downtrodden are what used to be called the working class? But BLM would say that's a deliberate swerve to avoid the issue of race, and women would say that's the usual bullshit to exclude them, and asylum seekers say this, and urban versus country say that, and young versus old, and Scots versus the English and north versus south. And what about the Muslims?

Whoever said diversity is strength was having a laugh. All you get is a cacophony of noise.

So Johnson promised a world that made sense, of homogeneity, of shared cultural values, like it used to be (it of course was never like that, but that's beside the point). It might be a dream, a lie, but no worse than the lies never spoken, just implemented.

What's the left going to tell people yearning for this lost Britain? You know, to bring them around? I'll tell you what they'll do, they'll call them racist and wait for them to die.

Meanwhile a never ending succession of Tory fuckwits will rule now and forever.
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Depressingly spot on.
 
The perfect fumble said:
And how does the left do that? By appealing to what people have in common? Remind them that regardless of race or religion, the downtrodden masses are what we used to call the working class, and the left has always stood up for the working class! Right? But BLM would say that's a deliberate swerve to avoid the issue of race, and women would say that's the usual bullshit to exclude them, and asylum seekers say this, and urban versus countryside say that, and young versus old, and Scots versus the English and north versus south. And what about the Muslims?

Whoever said diversity is strength was having a laugh! All you get is a cacophony of noise.

So Johnson promised a Britain that made sense, of homogeneity, of shared cultural values, like it used to be (of course it was never like that, but that's beside the point). You might consider it a delusion, a blatant lie, and you may be right, but is Johnson's lie worse than the long list of lies the political class never talked about in public? Just implemented, sometimes in error, but more often quite deliberately, quietly, over many decades.

What's the left going to tell people yearning for this lost Britain? You know, to bring them around? I'll tell you what they'll do, they'll call them racist and wait for them to die.

Meanwhile a never ending succession of Tory fuckwits will rule now and forever.
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We'll wait for a generation that recognises racism and misogyny for what it is, and welcomes multiculturalism (if only for the food choices), and knows how immigrants boost the economy and keep vital services going. And all we have to do then is get them to vote.

I'm afraid whether on here or on the doorstep, I know no reasoned arguments can overcome deep-felt and tabloid-sustained prejudice.

I generalise to some extent but I don't think you should get away with generalisng what Johnson offered. "Homogeneity"? You mean "whiteness". That's the myth (and for a lot of people, that is how it was, or how they wished it was) - I can remember as a child the discussion when the first non-white family bought a semi in our M20 road.

And it's not "left" not to be racist.

And that blunt riposte is partly prompted not by your post but on the shittiness of the VSO cut.
 
bluethrunthru said:
state of this lot - we are constantly told these people didn't exist but the one's who did were extremely knowledgeable and knew exactly what they were voting for - no they didn't

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That was superb. Constantly shouting over him all the time. And when they couldn’t argue any more that guy off camera said he would rather eat grass than stay in the EU. No wonder he then walked away.
 
Vic said:
We'll wait for a generation that recognises racism and misogyny for what it is, and welcomes multiculturalism (if only for the food choices), and knows how immigrants boost the economy and keep vital services going. And all we have to do then is get them to vote.

I'm afraid whether on here or on the doorstep, I know no reasoned arguments can overcome deep-felt and tabloid-sustained prejudice.

I generalise to some extent but I don't think you should get away with generalisng what Johnson offered. "Homogeneity"? You mean "whiteness". That's the myth (and for a lot of people, that is how it was, or how they wished it was) - I can remember as a child the discussion when the first non-white family bought a semi in our M20 road.

And it's not "left" not to be racist.
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Multiculturalism is the big lie.

There is a dominant culture in this country, it is difficult to define and changes over time, but those who lie outside it are only too aware of it. Multiculturalism is one of those lies which is so pervasive on the left that no one ever seriously questions it, because to do so would show how hollow it is.

How, for example, can so many BAME feel so alienated from the mainstream when, according to multiculturalism, there is no mainstream to be alienated from?

Multiculturalism on the surface seems a very good idea, at least to the left and others smitten with the ambition for unity, but it is increasingly shown to be an insidious lie, because far from unifying a society, it fragments it.

At its worst it is destructive of this country's liberal democratic heritage, tradition, and values based on individual rights and freedoms, and far from liberating us as a people, it actually damages us as a nation.

Ask yourself this, whatever happened to the melting pot?
 
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bluethrunthru said:
state of this lot - we are constantly told these people didn't exist but the one's who did were extremely knowledgeable and knew exactly what they were voting for - no they didn't

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Fucking hell, that discussion utterly sums up the “debate” the country had for four years after the referendum. You have to laugh I guess.
 
bluethrunthru said:
state of this lot - we are constantly told these people didn't exist but the one's who did were extremely knowledgeable and knew exactly what they were voting for - no they didn't

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And we were supposed to understand and try and persuade people like this? He did, and it didn't seem to go well....

Or maybe some of them went home and tore up their UKIP member cards.
 
Didsbury Dave said:
Fucking hell, that discussion utterly sums up the “debate” the country had for four years after the referendum. You have to laugh I guess.
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You’d piss yourself laughing if it was a lunatic fringe. The fact that it represents the opinions of about half the population is just depressing. What a fucking state we’ve got ourselves into thanks to the unfettered propaganda from the right wing nationalist elements of the media for the last 50 years.
 
The perfect fumble said:
Multiculturalism is the big lie, there is a dominant culture in this country, it is difficult to define and changes over time, but those who lie outside of it are only too aware of it. Multiculturalism is one of those lies which is so prevalent on the left that no one ever seriously questions it, because to do so would show how hollow it is.

How, for example, can so many BAME feel so alienated from the mainstream when, according to multiculturalism, there is no mainstream to be isolated from?

Multiculturalism on the surface seems a very good idea, at least to the left and others smitten with the ambition for unity, but it is increasingly shown to be a lie, because at its heart it divides us.

At its worst it is destructive of this country's liberal democratic heritage, tradition, and values based on individual rights and freedoms, and far from liberating us as a people, it actually damages us as a nation.

Ask yourself this, whatever happened to the melting pot?
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Alive and well, and moved to California.

Multiculturalism doesn't eradicate racism.
 
bluethrunthru said:
state of this lot - we are constantly told these people didn't exist but the one's who did were extremely knowledgeable and knew exactly what they were voting for - no they didn't

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It is a sad state of affairs that so many people were duped in the debate. They were lied to and they were exploited.

Posters will not remember this i am sure, but before the referendum i posted that holding a referendum on the issue was poor politics. I am not a fan of referendums at all and I feared at the time that many good decent people through no fault of their own would be lied to and duped into believing utter nonsense.

I consider myself fairly well educated and i didn't understand the complexity of the debate, there is no shame in admitting that because I have met very few people who did understand the complexities of the debate. As a result the debate did not become about facts it became about feelings. People grasp feelings better than fact and the likes of Farage exploited people's feelings and it became emotional. A sure fire way to win is convince people that there emotions and feelings are correct and that the facts are wrong. This was not one sided though, the remain side of the debate also employed those tactics and used emotion and feelings but they were hindered because of peoples association with their country rather than a political and economic Union.

It was why I became so disillusioned with the remain camp, they offered status quo feelings rather a vision of what could be achieved and change wins over status quo.

I say this as somebody who once i had become educated enough, although not nearly well enough to vote on the day, became convinced leave was the correct thing to do given my political beliefs. Leave would not have won though based on my political beliefs it had to use the tactics it did to win.
 
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