Political relations between UK-EU

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It is a sad state of affairs that so many people were duped in the debate. They were lied to and they were exploited.

Posters will not remember this i am sure, but before the referendum i posted that holding a referendum on the issue was poor politics. I am not a fan of referendums at all and I feared at the time that many good decent people through no fault of their own would be lied to and duped into believing utter nonsense.

I consider myself fairly well educated and i didn't understand the complexity of the debate, there is no shame in admitting that because I have met very few people who did understand the complexities of the debate. As a result the debate did not become about facts it became about feelings. People grasp feelings better than fact and the likes of Farage exploited people's feelings and it became emotional. A sure fire way to win is convince people that there emotions and feelings are correct and that the facts are wrong. This was not one sided though, the remain side of the debate also employed those tactics and used emotion and feelings but they were hindered because of peoples association with their country rather than a political and economic Union.

It was why I became so disillusioned with the remain camp, they offered status quo feelings rather a vision of what could be achieved and change wins over status quo.

I say this as somebody who once i had become educated enough, although not nearly well enough to vote on the day, became convinced leave was the correct thing to do given my political beliefs. Leave would not have won though based on my political beliefs it had to use the tactics it did to win.
In part, it was the lies, and the people at the forefront, that switched me off from voting Leave despite me always thinking that the UK would be better off out of the EU.

There’s a separation of thought needed by some when it comes to this. Too many people accuse people who either have always wanted to leave the EU, or voted Leave at the time, of being like or having the same views as the likes of Farage, or of believing lies. It’s a lazy and incorrect snipe. Not everyone fell for the lies and didn’t trust the likes of Farage, they already had their own existing negative views on the EU.

While the referendum did entice people who knew nothing about the subject, to be exploited into voting Leave; it should be remembered that Leave lost many votes because of their lies, as well as an austerity Tory govt who would lead us through leaving working against them, and the likes of Farage! It put me off voting for something I had previously believed in (and now do long term after the fact, whether it’s going badly at the moment or not). All of their lies worked against them when it came to some people. If they’d lied less, they might still have had the same number of votes, just less from people who believed the lies and more from people who didn’t.
 
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Then why does the average person vote Tory ?
It has always been the goal of the Capitalist/ruling class to protect their own interests and own societal standing, they do this by convincing the working class to vote against their own interests and for their interests.

It is easy when you have 90% of the media and the weight of the establishment on your side plus being backed by countless think tanks which are of course funded by the capitalist/ruling class.

In a society like the UK this is possible because of the class system and the seemingly automatic deference shown to the likes of people like Rees-Mogg. Until that system of deference is brought down plus the system of old school tie that ingrains establishment people in places of power then the country will vote Tory.

As far as I can see there is absolutely no reason why anybody who is working class should vote Tory, because all you are doing by voting Tory is cementing the system in place that leads to the inequalities that are already in place. Its a never ending cycle of entitlement that the working class are locked out of and have no chance of ever entering because the country is controlled by Capitalist class.
 
In part, it was the lies, and the people at the forefront, that switched me off from voting Leave despite me always thinking that the UK would be better off out of the EU.

There’s a separation of thought needed by some when it comes to this. Too many people accuse people who either have always wanted to leave the EU, or voted Leave at the time, of being like or having the same views as the likes of Farage, or of believing lies. It’s a lazy and incorrect snipe. Not everyone fell for the lies and didn’t trust the likes of Farage, they already had their own existing negative views on the EU.

While the referendum did entice people who knew nothing about the subject, to be exploited into voting Leave; it should be remembered that Leave lost many votes because of their lies, as well as an austerity Tory govt who would lead us through leaving working against them, and the likes of Farage! It put me off voting for something I had previously believed in (and now do long term after the fact, whether it’s going badly at the moment or not). All of their lies worked against them when it came to some people. If they’d lied less, they might still have had the same number of votes, just less from people who believed the lies and more from people who didn’t.
I can't disagree with that, I could not vote leave because of Farage. A left wing mate of mine though voted leave because of Farage.

A strange episode in UK politics, that is for sure and as I posted a long time ago, it would hurt the left far more than it would hurt the right.
 
Best post in the Politcs forum for ages!
Yeah, sure. Blaming the left for not tapping in to Johnson's appeal to "shared cultural values" and for calling people racist, rather than pandering to this hankering after a long-gone past. Oh, but wait, "Meanwhile a never ending succession of Tory fuckwits will rule now and forever".

What contempt is that showing for the people who vote for them?
 
Yeah, sure. Blaming the left for not tapping in to Johnson's appeal to "shared cultural values" and for calling people racist, rather than pandering to this hankering after a long-gone past. Oh, but wait, "Meanwhile a never ending succession of Tory fuckwits will rule now and forever".

What contempt is that showing for the people who vote for them?

None.
 
Yeah, sure. Blaming the left for not tapping in to Johnson's appeal to "shared cultural values" and for calling people racist, rather than pandering to this hankering after a long-gone past. Oh, but wait, "Meanwhile a never ending succession of Tory fuckwits will rule now and forever".

What contempt is that showing for the people who vote for them?

Think about your use of the word pandering, why is an appeal to shared cultural values pandering, what's wrong with having shared cultural values? Surely that's what defines us as a people, as a nation?

Theresa May stated at the Tory Party conference in 2016....

"If you believe you are a citizen of the world, you are a citizen of nowhere"

And for once she had a point.

The Blair/Cameron mush of 1997 to 2016 led us to Brexit, with their brand of globalist, welcoming to the world, multicultural, economically conservative, socially liberal flimflam. Sadly for these yesterday men (and for all of us) this bollocks was at variance to where we were as a people.

Tick, tock, tick, tock....

And now Johnson and Farage have made hay with that variance.

We are not as economically conservative as Blalr/ Cameron believed we were, and we're not as socially liberal either. We might well be multi-ethnic but we're not multicultural, with all cultures given equal status. That's bullshit newspeak the left peddles, because of their post empire hangover, divide and rule, pillage and plunder, cultural imperialism and the white man's burden.

Ask yourself this.....Is what is taught at a Bradford Madrasa antithetical to what it is to be British?

The answer has to be no.

And it's no, not because of what is being taught, but because there is no longer a consensus on what it is to be British.

Previous generations would be aghast, yet who can deny that Britishness now exists in the realm of unfathomable.

Sadly the left has no answers to any of this. How where we live is increasingly delineated along ethnic and religious lines (they've always been delineated by class), how groups with distinctly "different" modes of behaviour and outlook exist in our larger towns and cities, coexisting, but only in the sense that they exist at the same time, but not in the same place and certainly not in harmony. And how does the left reconcile the fact that at best there's a grudging acceptance, particularly by the white working class, that things ain't what they used to be and that's just the way it is, but that the grudging acceptance was rooted in an unspoken angst (inadvertently given voice by Brexit) that it shouldn't have been allowed to be this way.

But you and I both know the left cannot address these issues because that would be racist, at odds with the equal status given to all cultures, under the all encompassing umbrella of multiculturalism. Besides, to address these issues would suggest there's a problem and that would require a recognition that certain ethnic minorities have a problem, which of course can never be recognised (unless buses and children get blown up). Better for the left to blame the racist white lumpen proletariat, which is all very well and good, unless you require them to vote for you, which increasingly they don't.

Look at how Starmer is scrabbling to find a Labour definition of patriotism he can flog to the unthinking masses (that's the white poor, you know, the new black) because focus groups tell him his party is seen as unpatriotic. Good luck with that, because he's doomed to fail, and he'll fail because he's straddling too much, too many incompatibles, so he'll end up with something so vague as to be meaningless.

Ask yourself.....Why is this so difficult for the left?

No doubt you love this country, I certainly do, but unless we can come to a definition of what it is we both love, then chances are we don't love the same thing (remember those shared cultural values) and we leave the field open to the likes of Johnson and Farage to define it for us. And if people vote for that definition I don't hold them in contempt, I hold the left in contempt for leaving the field open.

Take a look at the first half of this from 2012, when we were still basking in the Olympic afterglow of dancing NHS nurses, Churchill and Mo Farah. Will Self plays the typical lefty and Hitchens plays the pantomime villain. Everyone else shuffles their feet in embarrassment and avoids the question....




Of course, barely four years later, all this guff (with the possible exception of Hitchens, which tells you just how screwed we are) got blown away by UKIP and Brexit.
 
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Think about your use of the word pandering, why is an appeal to shared cultural values pandering, what's wrong with having shared cultural values? Surely that's what defines us as a people, as a nation?

Theresa May stated at the Tory Party conference in 2016....

"If you believe you are a citizen of the world, you are a citizen of nowhere"

And for once she was right.

....

Nah, that phrase alone incensed me. It was the first time I realised what it was like not to belong, to be on the outside. That was May telling me to fuck off.

I think it was the first time I felt alienated from my country of birth. Never quite felt the same about Britain since.

Also my first experience of being ‘radicalised’.
 
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Nah, that phrase alone incensed me. It was the first time I realised what it was like not to belong, to be on the outside. That was May telling me to fuck off.

I think it was the first time I felt alienated from my country of birth. Never quite felt the same about Britain since.

Also my first experience of being ‘radicalised’.
Absolutely. I was officially "othered". The "homogeneity" of "shared cultural values" was always a myth - really, what did the likes Johnson and Rees-Mogg share with the plebeian classes? What connected the Gorbals and the playing fields of Eton? Nothing except the occasional war. Perhaps any sort of internationalism was always at odds with any sort of nationalism. If I was glad to be British, it was because of an accident of birth, nothing to do with shared cultural values. Tories always were lower than vermin, but (once Labour established the welfare state) they bought into it, till Thatcher wrecked it. She and her enablers wrecked any shared cultural values, not immigration.

And anyone who buys into that "citizen of nowhere" crap has contributed to killing off "shared cultural values".
 
Nah, that phrase alone incensed me. It was the first time I realised what it was like not to belong, to be on the outside. That was May telling me to fuck off.

I think it was the first time I felt alienated from my country of birth. Never quite felt the same about Britain since.

Also my first experience of being ‘radicalised’.

Fook Mi and Fook Yu....

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You're an International Man of Mystery.
 
That is sort of correct and sort of isnt.

There was never any reason for a Government to hold a referendum, the UK does not have the constitutional provision to hold referendum. It did so because it feared losing votes to UKIP who were calling for a referendum and to placate its own Eurosceptics who were making the party ungovernable for Cameron.

It was only the desire of Cameron to stay in power was the referendum called, it was never about the EU, It was about control of the Tory party and staying in power. The Conservative party only exist to be in power, they truly believe they are the natural party of government and any threat to that hegemony is dealt with ruthlessly by the party, the organisations attached to it and the media who suck up to it,

Those who congratulate Farage for his politicking forget that there would never have been a referendum if Cameron had control of his party and there was no threat to his power.
This is exactly the issue. The alternative to Cameron not offering a referendum would have been the continued existence and probable rise of UKIP, and as much as Brexit is derided we could have ended up in a worse position. It was a question the nation had been promised would be asked many times before and when it came about and Cameron said it would be a one time opportunity, all the traditional parties didn't factor in the historically negative vibe towards the EU among older people. What's worse is that they had a warning with the Indy ref not long before which got way too close for comfort.

For this referendum, on such an important topic, they could have put parameters in to say it needed a margin of victory, but whilst that would have been a solution to this one, it would have also meant the continuation of anti-EU parties and probably the inevitability of future referendums. Maybe leaving the EU, learning it's the wrong decision, and rejoining in some way (SM, EFTA etc) may be the quickest route to answering an age old question.

I think both of these post while not unfair overestimate the threat of UKIP.

Farage and UKIP were not a legitimate threat to the tory power base. The first past the post system and historical structures virtually ensure a Labour Conservative government and opposition. In our electoral system the best you can hope for is to be kingmaker..... and then be blamed for all the countries failings. Step forward Lib Dems.

The performance of UKIP bears this out, despite the oceans of coverage they never made a dent in the commons. Their most effective communicator couldn't win the South Thanet seat or the seat of Bercow before that. UKIP was a one man band but even Galloway or Caroline Lucas was more electorally successful with far less coverage. Farage even tried to resign after that. The party was a land of broken toys with candidates that regularly embarrassed themselves on the national stage.

If Farage had of been a right wing Tory, fair enough he could have caused carnage for Cameron or any Conservative leader. The referendum in my opinion recharged him, the failure to take on and refute his arguments was a huge failing of the Conservative party.
 
I’ve been called worse...

May using that phrase was a big moment for me, though. It had a real impact. Funny how these things work out.

There was something ‘not quite British’ about it.

You're right, we've never been blood and soil. It's probably THE reason I love my country.
 
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I think both of these post while not unfair overestimate the threat of UKIP.

Farage and UKIP were not a legitimate threat to the tory power base. The first past the post system and historical structures virtually ensure a Labour Conservative government and opposition. In our electoral system the best you can hope for is to be kingmaker..... and then be blamed for all the countries failings. Step forward Lib Dems.

The performance of UKIP bears this out, despite the oceans of coverage they never made a dent in the commons. Their most effective communicator couldn't win the South Thanet seat or the seat of Bercow before that. UKIP was a one man band but even Galloway or Caroline Lucas was more electorally successful with far less coverage. Farage even tried to resign after that. The party was a land of broken toys with candidates that regularly embarrassed themselves on the national stage.

If Farage had of been a right wing Tory, fair enough he could have caused carnage for Cameron or any Conservative leader. The referendum in my opinion recharged him, the failure to take on and refute his arguments was a huge failing of the Conservative party.

Farage was all the things you say, but his very existence opened up fissures in the country but more importantly in the Conservative party, where there were long standing fault lines already over Europe.

The crack he opened up meant Cameron felt the need to paper over with a promise of a referendum, in the sure fire knowledge it would never happen, because the Liberals in a coalition would have his back. The liberals collapsed in 2015 and the rest is history.
 
I’ve been called worse...

May using that phrase was a big moment for me, though. It had a real impact. Funny how these things work out.

There was something ‘not quite British’ about it.

Agree with this. Not the form of British that I’ve personally been proud of, at least.
 
Farage was all the things you say, but his very existence opened up fissures in the country but more importantly in the Conservative party, where there were long standing fault lines already over Europe.

The crack he opened up meant Cameron felt the need to paper over with a promise of a referendum, in the sure fire knowledge it would never happen, because the Liberals in a coalition would have his back. The liberals collapsed in 2015 and the rest is history.
Again, a fair assessment of Cameron's motivation but his estimation of the scale of the problem was wrong. The fissure you refer to was never in danger of breaking the Tory Party or seriously robbing them of seats. By contrast look at Labour today, at no stage in 2015 did the Conservative party appear that divided.

Like amputation on a foot after you stubbed your toe.
 
Resolution in the US Senate reaffirming support for the Good Friday Agreement and the NI Protocols.



All this and Biden isn't taking Johnson's calls............when he sends someone to meet Biden they will be in an ante room with a junior intern who is sat doodling whilst the UK envoy makes his case - then it will be " well thanks for coming I'll see to it President Biden knows you called by"
 
I think both of these post while not unfair overestimate the threat of UKIP.

Farage and UKIP were not a legitimate threat to the tory power base. The first past the post system and historical structures virtually ensure a Labour Conservative government and opposition. In our electoral system the best you can hope for is to be kingmaker..... and then be blamed for all the countries failings. Step forward Lib Dems.

The performance of UKIP bears this out, despite the oceans of coverage they never made a dent in the commons. Their most effective communicator couldn't win the South Thanet seat or the seat of Bercow before that. UKIP was a one man band but even Galloway or Caroline Lucas was more electorally successful with far less coverage. Farage even tried to resign after that. The party was a land of broken toys with candidates that regularly embarrassed themselves on the national stage.

If Farage had of been a right wing Tory, fair enough he could have caused carnage for Cameron or any Conservative leader. The referendum in my opinion recharged him, the failure to take on and refute his arguments was a huge failing of the Conservative party.

Whilst true. How long can you keep an ever growing anti EU brigade going ? Can you imagine the calls right now if we still hadn’t had a referendum- it would be twice as high, Farage and Co were never going to just disappear
 

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