A thread about protesters

[Vic]

I did say possibly false pretext. There seems to be evidence both from UK protests in the last 12 months and historical examples that a hard core or extreme element latch on or at least exist at the fringes of perfectly proper protest. I know you know your left wing history, so I'd point to the rise of the Red Brigades in Italy or the Baader Meinhof faction in Germany. Both were attached to legit union or student protest movements but evolved into something altogether more sinister. I'll immediately admit that in both these examples that draconian policing / enforcement had an incendiary effect. Also, I'm not having a pop at the left - the manifestation of rw 'statue protection' mobsaround the later BLM protests last summer were just as dodgy.
Overall I'd say actions have unintended consequences - both for protestors and police, and both protestors and police (or legislators) have a responsibility to take extreme care exercising their powers. At present we are seeing some examples clumsy policing, some protestors abusing their rights to protest, and opportunistic legislation.

They might have for all I know (I've not looked) but did Italy or Germany respond to terrorism with restrictions on peaceful protest like in this bill?

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

They might have for all I know (I've not looked) but did Italy or Germany respond to terrorism with restrictions on peaceful protest like in this bill?

They responded to criminality and terrorism in exactly the way you would expect - not sure if any normal / innocent protestors got swept up in it which is more of an issue. A characteristic the extreme elements shared was a gradual shift from protest movement to criminal, to terrorist. Bit of a chicken and egg thing I suppose, because by criminalising people you push them further towards the fringes or criminality.

 

[KPXBLN]

They didn't read it properly then. Or more likely, more political mischief-making. I wonder why they omitted to mention this bit?

(15) A statutory instrument containing regulations under subsection (12)
may not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before
and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.”

Your answer is below.

It significantly reduces the scrutiny though by moving it to secondary legislation, parliament won’t be able to amend them either.

The issue with the law around protests is the addition of noise and impact to it, which creates a huge grey area. It was a very disingenuous debate in the House of Commons as the conservatives kept going on about the blocked ambulance - that’s already covered and people agree fully with that and where disorder or damage is concerned.

 

[shemnel]

the guy being arrested seems a bit of a plonker, but this seems a slightly concerning demonstration of police powers...

the key to this video is, what did he put up that was interpreted as "inciting anti-police views"?? (which is, in fairness, an incredibly vague interpretation of law)

a further point is that the police also do make mistakes, regularly, they are human and can get stuff wrong as they have been proven to do. A lot of the time it manifests as incorrect arrests or misinterpretation of the law, and sadly sometimes it is more grave and serious, so this case i hope is on the more naive end. i dunno. mischief making everywhere you look these days.

 

[Cheesy]

the guy being arrested seems a bit of a plonker, but this seems a slightly concerning demonstration of police powers...

The guy actually tweeting this may just have a bit of an agenda seeing as his Twitter profile says he is...

"Anti-imperialist Groucho-Marxist. Activist for Labour, Momentum. Proudly rootless cosmopolitan."

and his profile picture is of Fidel Castro.

I'm wondering whether it is actually an alias of our very own @Rascal

:-)

 

[melrose40yarder]

You want a society were people don't have rights or a society were only a select few have rights.

Thats not what i meant the rent a mob are the ones who need to be dealt with.Violence is not the way forward.Everyone has the right to protest peacefully.

 

[Vic]

Thats not what i meant the rent a mob are the ones who need to be dealt with.Violence is not the way forward.Everyone has the right to protest peacefully.

The phrase "might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb" may apply. If people are going to be criminalised for peaceful protest, it's not much of an incentive to stay peaceful, is it?

 

[bert38]

the guy being arrested seems a bit of a plonker, but this seems a slightly concerning demonstration of police powers...

Why does it? You clearly hear the officer saying 'obtaining personal details'...the bloke sounds like a sad c*nt who needed nicking.

 

[Chippy_boy]

The phrase "might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb" may apply. If people are going to be criminalised for peaceful protest, it's not much of an incentive to stay peaceful, is it?

I dunno. We could just throw away the key instead of a slap on the wrist. Sounds like a plan.

 

[AlexWilliamsGloves]

Inane Duncan Smith mate.

On a more serious note, there's genuine questions about whether requiring vaccinations for existing health-care workers would actually be legal. Personally I am all for it, but it would open up possible challenges for unfair dismissal, religious discrimination etc.

It would be a shame IMO if such obstances got in the way. The simple, moral question is, should you be allowed to carry on caring for people who might die if they catch COVID off you, whilst you refuse to have a vaccination? The answer IMO from a moral, not a legal, perspective is NO.

Healthcare workers already, and for years, have to have certain vaccinations or be able to prove immunity to certain things before they can work.

Even at what could be deemed lower level social care roles you need to prove immunity to measles, rubella and TB...and HepB for many other jobs. For the first 3 your childhood immunisation history is sufficient evidence (granted, the BCG for TB isn't given much anymore). HepB vaccinations are additional and recommended but usually given to the likes of Nurses during training.

The point being, getting vaccinations to do certain health and social care jobs is not new. They are required to protect and safeguard both patients and staff. It's an Occupational Health requirement....as per the Dept of Health's "The Green Book"

 

[Chippy_boy]

Healthcare workers already, and for years, have to have certain vaccinations or be able to prove immunity to certain things before they can work.

Even at what could be deemed lower level social care roles you need to prove immunity to measles, rubella and TB...and HepB for many other jobs. For the first 3 your childhood immunisation history is sufficient evidence (granted, the BCG for TB isn't given much anymore). HepB vaccinations are additional and recommended but usually given to the likes of Nurses during training.

The point being, getting vaccinations to do certain health and social care jobs is not new. They are required to protect and safeguard both patients and staff. It's an Occupational Health requirement....as per the Dept of Health's "The Green Book"

I'm pleased to hear it. Unfortunately there was some law lord (I forget who but I could check if needed) saying it would be questionable legally introducing such requirements for existing employees.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

If anyone is interested in an alternative take on Bristol check this out. Yes, I know, it's Owen Jones and the two interviewees have the life experience of a semi-ripe banana between them, but as I say - an alternative view.

 

[VOOMER]

Yeah, fucking out of order this. I mean, we don't want increased public confidence in the police do we. I mean where would that end??? @VOOMER: WTF are you talking about.

The Government was elected with a manifesto commitment to “finish the job of police reform”. The Policing and Crime Bill will support the transformation of policing and the fire service by:

• Driving efficiency and better value for money by facilitating closer collaboration between the police, fire and rescue and emergency ambulance services, and maximising the ability of chief officers to make best use of the police officers, police staff and volunteers in their workforce.
• Enhancing local accountability of the fire and rescue service by enabling directly elected PCCs to on take the functions and duties of fire and rescue authorities, and further to delegate fire functions to a single chief officer for police and fire, where a local case is mad.
• Strengthening public confidence and trust in the police by radically reforming and simplifying the police complaints and disciplinary systems, including by providing for an enhanced role for PCCs and the IPCC and greater protection for police whistle-blowers.
• Ensuring the police and other law enforcement agencies have the powers they need to prevent and detect crime and protect children and young people from sexual exploitation.
• Strengthening the protections for those under investigation by the police by ensuring that there is a proper balance between the rights of individuals and the need to protect the wider public.
• Ensuring that those experiencing a mental health crisis receive the help they need, and that police cells are only used as places of safety in exceptional circumstances.
• Reforming firearms and alcohol licensing laws to better protect the public by preventing criminals and terrorists from exploiting loopholes in the Firearms Acts and strengthening the ability of licensing authorities to take action against alcohol driven crime and disorder.

Emma, I'm sure there was more, but I guess people can always read in for themselves.

 

[VOOMER]

Yeah, fucking out of order this. I mean, we don't want increased public confidence in the police do we. I mean where would that end??? @VOOMER: WTF are you talking about.

The Government was elected with a manifesto commitment to “finish the job of police reform”. The Policing and Crime Bill will support the transformation of policing and the fire service by:

• Driving efficiency and better value for money by facilitating closer collaboration between the police, fire and rescue and emergency ambulance services, and maximising the ability of chief officers to make best use of the police officers, police staff and volunteers in their workforce.
• Enhancing local accountability of the fire and rescue service by enabling directly elected PCCs to on take the functions and duties of fire and rescue authorities, and further to delegate fire functions to a single chief officer for police and fire, where a local case is mad.
• Strengthening public confidence and trust in the police by radically reforming and simplifying the police complaints and disciplinary systems, including by providing for an enhanced role for PCCs and the IPCC and greater protection for police whistle-blowers.
• Ensuring the police and other law enforcement agencies have the powers they need to prevent and detect crime and protect children and young people from sexual exploitation.
• Strengthening the protections for those under investigation by the police by ensuring that there is a proper balance between the rights of individuals and the need to protect the wider public.
• Ensuring that those experiencing a mental health crisis receive the help they need, and that police cells are only used as places of safety in exceptional circumstances.
• Reforming firearms and alcohol licensing laws to better protect the public by preventing criminals and terrorists from exploiting loopholes in the Firearms Acts and strengthening the ability of licensing authorities to take action against alcohol driven crime and disorder.

Yeah, fucking out of order this. I mean, we don't want increased public confidence in the police do we. I mean where would that end??? @VOOMER: WTF are you talking about.

The Government was elected with a manifesto commitment to “finish the job of police reform”. The Policing and Crime Bill will support the transformation of policing and the fire service by:

• Driving efficiency and better value for money by facilitating closer collaboration between the police, fire and rescue and emergency ambulance services, and maximising the ability of chief officers to make best use of the police officers, police staff and volunteers in their workforce.
• Enhancing local accountability of the fire and rescue service by enabling directly elected PCCs to on take the functions and duties of fire and rescue authorities, and further to delegate fire functions to a single chief officer for police and fire, where a local case is mad.
• Strengthening public confidence and trust in the police by radically reforming and simplifying the police complaints and disciplinary systems, including by providing for an enhanced role for PCCs and the IPCC and greater protection for police whistle-blowers.
• Ensuring the police and other law enforcement agencies have the powers they need to prevent and detect crime and protect children and young people from sexual exploitation.
• Strengthening the protections for those under investigation by the police by ensuring that there is a proper balance between the rights of individuals and the need to protect the wider public.
• Ensuring that those experiencing a mental health crisis receive the help they need, and that police cells are only used as places of safety in exceptional circumstances.
• Reforming firearms and alcohol licensing laws to better protect the public by preventing criminals and terrorists from exploiting loopholes in the Firearms Acts and strengthening the ability of licensing authorities to take action against alcohol driven crime and disorder.

Yeah, fucking out of order this. I mean, we don't want increased public confidence in the police do we. I mean where would that end??? @VOOMER: WTF are you talking about.

The Government was elected with a manifesto commitment to “finish the job of police reform”. The Policing and Crime Bill will support the transformation of policing and the fire service by:

• Driving efficiency and better value for money by facilitating closer collaboration between the police, fire and rescue and emergency ambulance services, and maximising the ability of chief officers to make best use of the police officers, police staff and volunteers in their workforce.
• Enhancing local accountability of the fire and rescue service by enabling directly elected PCCs to on take the functions and duties of fire and rescue authorities, and further to delegate fire functions to a single chief officer for police and fire, where a local case is mad.
• Strengthening public confidence and trust in the police by radically reforming and simplifying the police complaints and disciplinary systems, including by providing for an enhanced role for PCCs and the IPCC and greater protection for police whistle-blowers.
• Ensuring the police and other law enforcement agencies have the powers they need to prevent and detect crime and protect children and young people from sexual exploitation.
• Strengthening the protections for those under investigation by the police by ensuring that there is a proper balance between the rights of individuals and the need to protect the wider public.
• Ensuring that those experiencing a mental health crisis receive the help they need, and that police cells are only used as places of safety in exceptional circumstances.
• Reforming firearms and alcohol licensing laws to better protect the public by preventing criminals and terrorists from exploiting loopholes in the Firearms Acts and strengthening the ability of licensing authorities to take action against alcohol driven crime and disorder.

Yes there is bit more

Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill 2019-21: Part 3 and 4- Public order and unauthorised encampments - House of Commons Library

This Library briefing paper provides analysis of Parts 3 and 4 of the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill (the Bill). Parts 3 and 4 would amend various pieces of public order law to change to how protests and unauthorised encampments (Gypsy and Traveller sites associated with trespass) are...

commonslibrary.parliament.uk

 

[Vic]

If anyone is interested in an alternative take on Bristol check this out. Yes, I know, it's Owen Jones and the two interviewees have the life experience of a semi-ripe banana between them, but as I say - an alternative view.

Sounds a bit like the Barnsley pie riots.

 

[bluethrunthru]

oh I get it - you only wade in on peaceful protests - one's mostly populated by women and if possible kids.......

Bristol protests: Police action at Kill the Bill demo

Fourteen people are arrested at another demonstration in Bristol over new police bill.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Rascal]

Rubbish. No-one is going to stop CND protests

Can you guarantee that?

They might stop you from parking a pink boat on Oxford Street as part of your protest, or stop you going around shouting bollocks over a megaphone at 02:00 am, but quite right too.

Setting the rules about how and when you can protest is authoritarian.

You are simply making my point for me, people will only be allowed to protest in a field in the middle of nowhere between 8am and 8-05am as long as they make no noise.

Your concerns are either misplaced or disingenuous. My strong suspicion is that for a lot of those opposed, it is the latter. They don't like the idea that their anarchistic tendencies are being curtailed. That's what their objections are really about. They want the right to behave like arseholes and don't like it that normal people have had enough.

I am not an anarchist, I believe in democracy. Anarchists call for the abolition of the state, I believe in the state.

You just do not like protests because somehow it disrupts your life. That my old mate is behaving selfishly as you simply do not give two fucks about anyone else. That does not make you normal, it makes you a pawn of the establishment.

I never had you down as an authoritarian, but I suppose as the Tories drift ever rightwards it is just a natural progression. It is commonly held that Fascism is Conservatism taken to the extreme and this Government with this bill having totalitarian aspirations, ideologically based on a relationship between business and the centralized government, business-and-government control of the market place, repression of criticism or opposition, a leader cult and exalting the state above individual rights is well on that road.

 

[mancity1]

Can you guarantee that?

Setting the rules about how and when you can protest is authoritarian.

You are simply making my point for me, people will only be allowed to protest in a field in the middle of nowhere between 8am and 8-05am as long as they make no noise.



I am not an anarchist, I believe in democracy. Anarchists call for the abolition of the state, I believe in the state.

You just do not like protests because somehow it disrupts your life. That my old mate is behaving selfishly as you simply do not give two fucks about anyone else. That does not make you normal, it makes you a pawn of the establishment.

I never had you down as an authoritarian, but I suppose as the Tories drift ever rightwards it is just a natural progression. It is commonly held that Fascism is Conservatism taken to the extreme and this Government with this bill having totalitarian aspirations, ideologically based on a relationship between business and the centralized government, business-and-government control of the market place, repression of criticism or opposition, a leader cult and exalting the state above individual rights is well on that road.

Sounds a lot like the CCP (lol) without the genocide.

 

[lazerblue]

the bollock naked bird at the bristol protest last night didn't seem to have a clue what was going on, mind you she looked like she was wired to the moon, must be a student thing

 

[Didsbury Dave]

Sounds a bit like the Barnsley pie riots.

I thought there was only one. Riot that is, not

Or did another club have a copycat riot later?

I still maintain that could have been resolved peacefully if it wasn’t for a small number of hard left vegan agitators who’d turned up specifically to cause trouble.